What It's Like To...

What it's like to Direct Hit Television Shows

April 13, 2022 Season 2 Episode 23
What It's Like To...
What it's like to Direct Hit Television Shows
Show Notes Transcript

After just one day on a television set, Ken Fuchs knew that he had found his career path. He was assigned the job of stopping traffic while the director shot scenes, listening for “action!” and “cut!” cues from his walkie talkie. When he returned to the studio at the end of the day, he was asked to come back the following day–and he’s worked in television ever since. Now, decades later, Ken is a renowned television director.

Ken has spent his career directing unscripted reality TV shows, such as Shark Tank, Family Feud, The Bachelor and The Bachelorette. Ken is a three-time Primetime Emmy Award nominee, five-time Daytime Emmy Award nominee and the 2019 Daytime Emmy award winner for Outstanding Directing for a Gameshow. Ken’s jobs have taken him around the globe; he’s been to more than sixty-five countries with The Bachelor  franchise. But being a director isn’t all award shows and tropical locations–it’s all-consuming work.

This week on the Experience Podcast, Ken takes us behind the scenes to unpack what it’s really like to direct reality TV. He also answers questions from Experience Podcast listeners about The Bachelor franchise: Is it really unscripted? Are the romantic connections authentic? Do contestants do their own makeup? 

Tune in to learn more about Ken’s experience – and to get your reality TV questions answered!


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Hi, Ken, thank you so much for being here on my podcast. It's great to see you.


Great to be here. Thanks for having me.


I want to talk a little bit about kind of clarifying what you do in your in your work because I feel like a lot of people are aware, they think director and they think of maybe a theater director, we've done maybe school plays and things and what you do is quite different. Because you do unscripted shows, I would think, perhaps television director of a scripted show is maybe more akin to theatre directing, but yours is maybe more like sports directing, because you're live action and things. Am I wrong? Or?


Yeah, that's a that's a kind of a one way of looking at it. For sure. I think scripted directors will write so I'm in the genre I'm in it's called non scripted reality, and that covers, talk variety, music stand up. Sometimes it involves actors, and sometimes it involves scripts, but live TV event, TV competition, all that that whole genre of like, daytime talk, late night talk is all in that same sort of area, genre shows that I direct. But the difference, right, is that the you're not working with a cast of actors, and necessarily like breaking down a script and blocking the script and rehearsing and then doing the show. So  I’m sort of lucky, I fell into it at a time where it was just beginning. And everyone was like, Oh, that's weird and cute. And what does that, you know, it was like, sort of not on the, we weren't at the Big Boy table for a while. And then, as the years have progressed, people realize, like, oh, people like this form of entertainment, they like this on their television, it's probably cheaper to produce in some ways. And so sort of is taken off.


So you kind of, even though you do a lot of it, you do a variety of it. I think that each of your shows requires different skill sets. For you.


Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And that keeps it really fresh. For me. I was just talking with someone about that. Because Hollywood, you know, in all fields, they tend to want to kind of pigeonhole you a little bit and identify you and you do this. Yeah. So when I started, I started in multi camera live, like big event. Television, like award shows, and music specials, and things like that. So that's how I came up in the business, through production. And then end game shows, there's always been game shows, there'll always be game shows. And then this thing with this reality TV kind of idea came along 2020 years ago, I guess. And that opened the door to new kinds of storytelling. And it wasn't really clear who the directors would be like, some came from editing, and some came from scripted and some came from, but coming from my background, kind of was a nice fit, and it blended well. So yeah, I like doing all different kinds. I really do. It's, it's, they're different. And they're similar in a lot of ways, but they're also very different. And I I like mixing it up for sure.


Can you talk about the differences, uh, say when you're on the set of Family Feud versus Shark Tank versus, you know, the bachelor or something? Because sometimes you're kind of creating the story right there. As you're, as you're directing in the control room, and sometimes the story is created in the editing room afterwards. Right. So your job is different. Right? 


Well, I would say it's both all the time. So my job is the same in one respect, which is telling a story. So I'm just storytelling, whether it's Steve Harvey and this material that we throw to the board, and that game show has more of a format, and it's more formatted and less post intensive. Versus Bachelor, which is there's also sort of a structure, but it's more post intensive. There's more editing. Obviously, there's more shooting, there's more hours of footage. And then Shark Tank is sort of in the middle. It's sort of like a hybrid, in that it's sort of a reality show take it onto a stage. So Mike, my jobs look very similar, you know, either in a truck or a control room, or a garage that we've turned into a control room but no matter how you Yeah, I'm talking to crews and I'm staring at, you know, 20 to 120 monitors, wow. And I'm picking shots, and I'm directing the crew and talking to lighting and art and props and wardrobe and hair and makeup and, and the producers and sort of figuring out what's next. And like, you know, it's sort of similar. It's funny, in a way, it's sort of similar. But But, but you know, Bachelor is sort of the most different. And feud is the most sort of live, or live to live to tape live. We overshoot, but it's as close to, you know, studio audience and ready to go. And we integrate more of the elements in terms of music and graphics, whereas on bachelor, we don't integrate any of those elements, because we would never know where they would fit in what materials how it's going to get edited together. So there's similar similarities and differences. Yeah.


So on something like Family Feud, do you? What's kind of the workflow? Do you have to do a lot of you personally do a lot of pre production or as most of your work as soon as you hit the studio that day?


Yeah. So with Feud, it's like one way to look at it, it's sort of in terms of like, I think this helps people is in terms of just getting back to your last question in terms of like shooting ratio. So how much do you shoot for? How much do you air? Right? So, you know, in some cases, it's a two hour show, and we shoot 100 hours, accumulating a ton of content, and creating a show. And then on the other end of the spectrum, is live TV, right? So that's a one to one ratio, everything you shoot, like, last week, we did the bachelor finale, that everything we shot aired in that moment. So that's my dream, that's my favorite. And then in between, there's different, you know, something like feud, we shoot as if it's live, but we overshoot a little, so we can tighten it up. And, you know, there's some things that get, you know, kind of tightened up. And then Shark Tank, again, is somewhere in the middle where it's like, you know, without as much as Bachelor, and not as little as few, little more editing. And I'll do a line cut. So one of the differentiators in my business is whether the show whether the director is going to cut the cameras live or not. And I like to do it, I sort of err on the side of doing it, because I think it gives the producers and the post people they're sort of their first rough cut, if you will, I know it'll change a lot, few changes less than Shark Tank. But with Bachelor I don't do it at all, because it would be hugely exhausting, and difficult and a little expensive. And it wouldn't really helped them because scenes don't play out in long form. You know, they're sort of like a sound bite here. I mean, you know, everyone knows how those shows work. So that's sort of a differentiator to in my job or my day to day level. On few, there's pre production, we do set design, lighting, sound effects, graphics, we've been very consistent with those things over the years. Casting is a whole nother area, a whole nother department that falls under a producer's realm, materials, producers dealing with the host, Steve Harvey is more than producers. So when I come in, it's the my prep is getting the crew organized and together and hired for that season, and rehearsing them and sort of getting them up to speed. And we've been very consistent, very lucky with a very, very similar crew, every year, every day. So it's really lovely. It's very tight knit family, and it makes work. You know, it makes the workflow so much smoother. And then, and then we do, you know, a couple shows in the morning, and go to lunch and come back into a couple more shows. So we do four half hours. And it's quite nice. It's it's really, uh, we say the first word in Family Feud is family. And it's because we are so close, and all the shows are actually very close.


So that's 20 Shows a week then if you're doing four a day.


Yeah, some days we do. But not every week is five days a week. It's a lot it's a lot for hosts, you know, it's it's a lot of energy and it's a lot of on your feet. You know, some shows are easier physically feuds, pretty demanding. And some days we do three day weeks, four day weeks, five day weeks. Yeah, the syndicated you know, that's the syndicated feuds So in syndication TV, you can deliver to the stations, anywhere from whatever that deal is, I think 200 shows or season for us is usually like 200 shows. So it's like 5050 tape days.


Yeah, that's a lot. Wow.

And how do you feel at the end of it, have a taping day of that? Are you kind of exhausted? 

Because you're having to be early on and focused on everything for shows?


Yeah, yeah. It's pretty tiring. It's invigorating when you're doing it. You know, you're in the moment you're just alive and so excited. And so many, so much stimulation and so much going on. And then, yeah, at the end of the day, tend to, you know, unwind, yeah, second, definitely don't like go fall asleep right away, you have to, you have to sort of unwind.


I talked in a different episode with someone who's a sports producer for CBS Sports. And I was saying one thing that must be so exciting about your job is that you are so present, like, it's the kind of thing where you're not just phoning it in, you know, like, you're actually really, really focused and present in your job. And that's kind of a blessing, because a lot of people are, are not so it's draining, but at least you're right there. 


Yes, that's

right. I feel very, very, very blessed to, like, have fallen into this and have this as a career because it's, it just suits my temperament very, you know, very well. And so happy doing it.


You just have to really be on, you have to be focused. I mean, what if you're having a really bad day, or you're just tired that day or something, you just have to get yourself up, I guess.


100% That's exactly right. There's no bad days, there's just have to, you just have to grind, some days are more of a grind. And you have to just keep your head down and really find your inspiration and your energy from your crew. And people around you producers and, and do your job. And then other days come more easily. But it all beats you know, anything else I 



How do you manage them? All the different shows you do? They just happen to schedule?


No, it's a little complicated. A little tricky in there. We just do the best we can, you know,

because the Shark Tank also sketches. Do several, several on a day.


Yeah, Shark Tank, you know, Shark tanks are much smaller, because it's a network. So that order is, you know, anywhere usually from sometimes they'll order 12 A network will order like, a season will be anywhere from like, well, whatever it is 20 Shark Tank, we'll do like 22. So we shoot, we shoot a couple of days, you know, we Yeah, so shark tanks a much shorter season, because we're not doing as many episodes, obviously. But yeah, we're doing all day. A bunch of pitches, a bunch of companies, and then based on the panel of sharks, those get edited into episodes. We've typically had four companies in an episode, and we'll shoot anywhere from like eight to 10 a day. It's a busy busy day.


And so you're, you're calling out the cameras. Right? So it's not completely live to tape write for Shark Tank? Or how are you?


Yeah, Shark Tank is like live to tape, we don't stop, we don't really do like, unless there's a technical difficulty, we try to kind of let it all unfold in in real time, because I think that's the, the key to all of this entertainment is that it feels you know, very, super authentic and not contrived, or manipulated, or like phony or, you know, so how, you know, somebody, as you see, sometimes people forget what they were supposed to say. And they, because they do rehearse their pitch, but sometimes they'll forget, they'll fumble and the shark will go that's okay. And, you know, they'll continue on or start over. Because that's real, real life, you know that? Yeah. If you were going to a VC pitch meetings that could easily happen. And so we want it to feel kind of natural.


Yeah. And if the sharks both want the same product, and it gets a little heated, that's natural to I mean, some people really question in, you know, reality or the like, is this really reality? Or do they know about the products ahead of time? Or is this really their money? And it really is, I mean, this is, this is real.


And the reason it's real is the reason you know, it's real, is that it works and as you're watching it, it's it's it feels authentic, and I hate to keep using that word, but like, if the emotions are real and what people are saying is real. You know, I think they're been obvious in much of knockoff shows and shows coming from And I think viewers know when they're watching something that just feels absurd or contrived or, you know, overproduced, it's sort of doesn't it's not as satisfying.


Yeah, it doesn't ring true. And I think the show doesn't last.


That's right. That's right. And the beauty of the Shark Tank is that the other part of it is that, like, if they were to know, what was coming up next, and had done all the research, would, then they wouldn't have the discovery process, you know, of, like, who are you? What's your background? What do you know, like, all those questions, and all all that fact finding is kind of fun. It's part of the show. Yeah. And, you know, if they didn't have to do it, or if they were faking it, it wouldn't be. It just wouldn't mean true.


Yeah. And then you as the viewer feel like they're learning along with you. So that's part of the fun of it, too. You know, like, we're all kind of in that discovery process together.


That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And the sharks are really great at that, because they're such curious people. They're like, really, they're just lovely people. And they're just amazing, human beings who are actually very curious about businesses and the people that come in there and not, you know, they also just very big hearts, and they love entrepreneurs, and they love the sacrifice, and they know what it takes to get there. Because they were all there. They're all like self made, you know, millionaires and, and they did it themselves. And they struggled and so all their stories sort of come to light and, and come out in that, that dynamic of, you know, dealing with the person there on the road.


Yeah, that's good to know. Because I think a lot of people are curious about the sharks, because they seem kind of intimidating on TV, but they just nice real people to write and, and it's your I was wondering, because you're the director, right, so you you're not intimidated by them. Right, that that's your domain? 


Well, I

you know, it's funny, it's, it's a little intimidating. I mean, like, I look at them, and it's like, Wow, they're so smart. Like, you know, Mark Cuban, you know, you'll see Mark Cuban look off, you know, and you'll be like, Wow, he's, he's thinking of he's really thinking of something big, like he's got they got big ideas, but they're very, they're, they're amazing, amazing people. But yes, other times, I have to tell them, like, silly little TV things. And it's only so they look good. We all look good. It's not like, you know, but but they're looking to us for advice. I mean, that's the other thing is they're really smart about it about what they're doing, and when they want it to be great. And so they're happy to take any tips or advice or, you know, yeah, I don't have much, I really don't have much to offer because I honestly want them to be themselves as much as possible. You know, if that's how they want to sit, that's how they sit. That's how they cross their legs. That's how they cross their legs. Or, you know what I mean? Like, things like that.


And I'm sure on that show, on all the shows, like you mentioned on Family Feud, like family comes first, I think the crew, I know, just, I've worked in a different part of TV, TV news, like, everyone's dependent on everyone else, you know, you're the director, so you're kind of the top of the food chain, but everyone needs everyone for this thing to, to go. So I'm How do you develop that relationship with your crews? And, and, you know, have everyone have that respect for each other?


Well, that's, that's one of the most rewarding things. It really is over the years. I mean, I've been doing this for 40 years now. And it's just a dream. It's like, it's my whole life has been so amazing, because I sort of harken back to growing up, like one of the things I enjoyed the most and got the most out of was probably team sports, you know, I played a lot of sports. And then when I had my boys, I coached all their teams. And I just love that dynamic of everyone pulling together. You know, for one common goal. And I think more than anything I learned in the classroom, I actually bring that to the table and create an atmosphere. I have a saying that in terms of respect, there's a there's a chain of command, but there's not a chain of respect. It's not like somebody gets more respect because of their title, like everybody's treated equally. And thank God in the last few years to there's been this movement towards, you know, less toxicity and stuff in the workplace, but I've always run my shows that way. I give people a lot of credit. I listen to a lot of ideas and you know, I field questions and I just include people in the process and that really, I think has helped me develop really great crew, loyal crew, and a talented crew. And we kind of, kind of keep them. There's a lot of variations between the shows, but this is some, a lot of key people that stay with me on all the shows. Because we have such a shorthand.


That's a real key to your success, too, is your humility and your inclusion of other people, you know, I would hope that that's kind of what helps people rise to the top is people who are, you know, not just dictators and say, Here's how things have to be done. And, you know, people who, who listened to other people and and yeah,


I mean, definitely director. I mean, especially in film, there's, you know, there's directors of board point of view that's more of their own, that it's sort of like how you deliver the message, but yeah, I, I do it. I only that's the only way I know how to do it, because that's my true self. So I can only, you know, I can't really be someone else. And, you know, but I've lost jobs because of it. You know, I've been, you know, I think there's times people want to hire directors who are more screamers and yellers. And I don't know, I get excited, I scream and yell, but I try not to make it personal. I feel like if we missed the shot, or if we missed something, that we sort of missed it together. And that maybe I didn't rehearse the crew well enough or explain well enough what was about to happen or capture it. But it sort of comes back to me on me. I'll never like point fingers. Because they only know what I've told them. And as long as they're paying attention and doing their best. Sort of like, you know, you can't win them all.


Yeah, things are gonna go wrong. I mean, a lot of it's either live TV or it's just, it's live action anyway. It's not scripted. You can't do a lot of retakes, I would imagine. So it's life, right things, you can't be a huge perfectionist I would imagine in this profession.


Right? Well, right. That's exactly right. And it's funny, it's a funny balance, for me and for a lot of people, because I'm sort of a perfectionist, like, I'm a bit of a control freak in some ways. And that you sort of have to, you have to sort of like, really, you know, have a very strong plan, and then be willing to deviate from from that plan, and then get back on the plan, you know, but for sure, flexibility. And, perfection is not the goal, you know, it the the rougher the edges, definitely, you know, the better the more authentic, it feels. And, you know, the storytelling is, is really what happens in those moments, because that's often where people are the most vulnerable. And if we tried to, like have someone sit in his perfect light in a perfect chair, while they're thinking about something they're about to say, and that distracts them, and that's the worst.


Yeah. Can you think of some examples of where things have kind of gone, quote unquote, wrong? But they've actually been fine, you know, wrong, but turns out, right. Or maybe not even if not, right?


No, it always turns out, the truth is, there's no, there really is no wrong. It's sort of like improv comedy. Right? There's no, no, it's like it, whatever someone really feels and does. That's what's, you know, it may not be what we think is the best thing for the show. But you know, the biggest thing that comes to mind is like, you know, Colton jumping over that fence that one sees it or like, you know, people are like, oh, did you to practice that you haven't? Like, there's no one in a million years. If you see someone run into the dark, and there's not a camera and you're hearing things, like, that's usually not planned, right, we would rarely plan to not be able to cover something, but it happens, you know, and then you scramble, and like, cameras running and you know, like that chaos is not like, that's not fake. That's cameras, right? You know, that's, that's all real. So it usually, it usually goes, what it usually is fine. You just have to sort of make, you know, you have to make sure you have the pieces of it and then later on you can kind of interview or get a description of what happened or what someone was thinking, and that helps you kind of tie it together. So, it was the we had one season where the sky said set the girl home, you know, he sent her home and he came home He was walking back to the proposal area, and just just broke down just so painful. And the pain and the what he was feeling the emotion was so intense. Now, we didn't know that was going to happen. And we certainly didn't know where that was gonna happen. But it ended up happening in a lot of railing have a balcony of a, of a deck. And he just, like leaning over the balcony. And it was like, it was unbelievable. Like I couldn't have if I had thought about how to block that scene for a scripted show. 1000 times I couldn't come up with anything better.


A perfect mistake?


Yes, I call it happy accidents. Yeah, my life and my job and this world is full of them. And you just sort of have to look for them and embrace them. Because that's really the you know, that's really the key to a lot of this.


I would imagine. So the whole production of The Bachelor must be so different from say, a family feud or a Shark Tank, because they're on stages. And the bachelor, you're in the house mansion. And you said the control room is that garage, is that?


Yeah, wherever we are your garage, it could be a living room, it could be a hotel, you know, whatever location we're in, we find a space to make a control room. And it's quite amazing because we have like Tech, Tech Tech Department technical departments that create from scratch. A control room with communications and monitors and audio and the audio tech departments are so brilliant, and they work so hard to make that happen. Whereas like with the stage or with a truck show, you know, the truck rolls in, and it takes a couple of days to get the show up and running. And then it's like up and running in that one location. So we've been in incredible locations. And these guys work so hard lugging equipment around and making it work in funky countries and really funky, funky locations.


Yeah. So there's that must be a challenge for you to kind of get used to the different setup and the different location or is it kind of just plug and play it's similar situation different places.


It's hard if it's 118 degrees. And you know, like in Thailand or something, if we're out on the beach, it's very hard. But yes, plug and play in terms of like, in the end of the day, you sit down and you got your monitor wall and you put on your headset, and you're talking to your crew. And that's it like a way you go. And you try not to think about how uncomfortable you are, or, you know, how it could be better because short of being in an air conditioned control room with all the amenities and refrigerators and food craft service like shorter that you just you know, but that's sort of the fun to write. It's like the puzzle, putting that show together such a puzzle.


So can you kind of walk me through that? So you've got your headset on and you're talking to the crew? What what's going on? Is it just constant communication. And people are producers are with different contestants, or cast members in different places, or what's happening through that whole shoot,


it really depends on the shoot. You know, it really just depends on what we're shooting that day. Like it could be as simple as our host checking in on the, on the girl on the lead, and having a sit down interview. So in that case, it's like the producers will download to me, you know, the day before a week before five minutes before what's going to happen, what they expect to happen, what they'd like to see happen. And then, you know, we're like we're the host will have some control over like, where he walks in how he walks in and stuff. But if it's a surprise, or you know, if it's like a you know, sometimes we do those surprise things. It's a little, it's a little trickier. So then it's like you have one camera or two or three or six or 11 whatever you're shooting has you had you know, you sort of got over it you've kind of worked with production on the crew you'll need or you think you'll need and all the elements of audio and video and art and lighting and tech that you'll need. And you try to have a quick little camera meeting and then Away you go, you know or look at something real quick. Or have a producer sit in like you can't rehearse anything. Yeah. You kind of you just do your best and then tell everyone what to expect. And then it all goes off the rails. When you and you love it, and you make it great. And you tell the story, you just keep harping on that story from whoever's point of view, you've decided is that's the angle for that scene, that date or that rose ceremony or, you know,


and that's, you've decided on that, or that's with the producer.


No, that's all producers realm, in terms of the content and the story and the story. That's all, I don't really talk to the cast. Sometimes I'll see cast years later, and they're like, kind of remember you, but like, I don't talk to them as much as possible, I stay away. Because I don't really have much to offer, you know, I don't want to, I don't even want them to see me, honestly. Because then they're reminded, we want them to sort of forget, there's cameras forget, there's crew, and try to act like, you know, behave like, you know, humans in a normal setting. So, yeah, I mean, I'll work with the lead on like the row, you know, like, pick up the rows and, you know, work with them a little bit on how rose ceremony works, just the mechanics of it. But again, once it starts, we don't stop. It's just live. That's sort of the fun thing about having come from live TV to reality TV, people think, oh, it's, there's nothing live about it. But it is, it's like it's at its best is when we can do big chunks of scenes, live without interfering or stopping or saying anything, because, you know, they can start to feel more natural.


And those rose ceremonies are legendary at this point. I mean, there's I don't know if this is true, but people say they go like, all night long. And I mean, are you at five in the morning? And


I can't say but they are long, and you've seen some in the daylight. So that's some clue that they go long. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. It's, it's really tough, long, long, long days. But, you know, that's the business we chose. Where the business chose us, you know, I don't know what else I would be doing. So it's, I love it. And it's exhausting. But, you know, that's what it takes for that. Not every day is like that. But yes, those those in those invitation, those cocktail parties and Rose ceremonies can be very long nights.


And then do you get Are you the only director? Or do you get a break then? Or how do they keep shooting?


Yeah, no, it's really great. Now we have an awesome team of the four of us. And there's really love my team, and they came up through the show through shooting and stuff. And yeah, early, early on, when we were doing eight one hour shows it was much, much simpler show. And now we're 12 to our shows and specials and it's become a huge so no, no one person could do it. Yeah, you need you need to take the next day to sleep or prep. The next shoe, you know, we sort of leapfrog okay. And they and then we also like complete products, countries so someone can go and scout, you know what they're going to need to shoot, you know, a few days later. And then I kind of stay with the I stay with the, the show each place and do like the cocktail parties and Rose ceremonies and things, things like that. And then the other guys do more of the dates. And


wow. So you've been all over the world with this show.


I think we've been in like 65 countries or something. And then a few more than once, obviously Thailand and New Zealand and Mexico and you know, Europe, the few European countries more than once. Yeah, it's been amazing. But again, not for everyone. You know, like we were talking a little earlier to you know, before we started it's like, yeah, every person has sort of their, their gift or their passion or whatever you think it is. And and if it doesn't fit into this production mode, mold, it's not for you, because some people want nine to five sit at a desk and that's, you know, that's what they're comfortable. And this is not that. You know, but the travels been great. I love love, love travel. I've always traveled as a kid. And other than, you know, being away from my family which is horrible. You know, I take them when they can't when I can, but but the travel has been incredible. What an opportunity.


About how much of the time are you on the road? Do you think?


Let's see, we're probably on the road. Five, six weeks, I would probably on the road half, more than half the season. So, but it changes, right. Some seasons, we do a few more episodes in LA or less. And then we usually do some domestic episodes in other cities, but in the US, and then we try to get out to Yeah, it changes and then COVID changed everything. Obviously, we did those bubbles in Palm Springs, so those were not, you know, no travel. But now we're back to try to travel and fingers crossed, that all goes well and stays, you know, and stays feasible for everyone.








You mentioned earlier that you love doing the live show. What about that is really fun for you?


Well, for a director, it's like you're what you're the decision you make is the decision that gets me you know, it's like there's not really, there's no second guessing because that's the it's done. So that shot I take that shot, that's the shot. Everyone sees, you know, 10 million people see. But so let's just take an energy just from the moment you know, we start we're prepping it rehearsing and working with the producers really closely. In terms of like, their vision and helping bring that to life and rehearsing and rehearsing, rehearsing and just getting it all and then and then you know going on the air live, it's just that countdown and that that moment is unlike anything else. It's so exciting. To just great energy, that performance level, sort of like sports, but now you're getting to like perform. And the camera people everyone's just sort of a little more wired.


Yeah. hyped up for the for the moment. Yeah,


yep, yep, yep. Yep. Oh, that's great new audience to like, I love seeing the audience load in and their energy and now we're back to having an audience so that's great. We had to go a few seasons without an audience and that was tough. Yeah, on those shows. So we're back to having fans back in the seats and it's just so fun. They're like so crazy bachelor nation such a big you know, part of the show.


Oh, it's huge. So I wanted to share with you that so I have a niece and nephew who are both college age and they they run these like Bachelor Fantasy pools fantasy league. Last year they they got my mom involved so their grandma said it's all these college kids and a grandma and so she started watching and it was it was really cute so they would like have these zooms with with grandma about like who it was for a bachelorette season and she would weigh in like I don't think that guy cause he seems a little too creepy for her and, and all this stuff. Like multi generational bachelorette watching.


Oh, that's so cool. Cool. Yeah, it's it's really all the all the shows. The shows I work on seem to all be kind of family friendly and you know, hear about grandkids, grandkids, grandkids watching with a grandpa and, you know, you know, a lot of families watch Family Feud and yeah, really? I love that. I love that.


Can I have some questions from listeners about the bachelorette bachelor franchise? Can I ask you? These? Some of these are probably more producer questions, so I'm going to try to probably a lot of them are producer questions. Okay, oh, this one from Evan S. What was your favorite season?


Oh, that's a good question. Um, you know, it, it might have been my first season, which is interesting. But that season with Trista. And with Ryan, and then ending up doing the wedding with Trista and Ryan wedding, which was like, so big, so huge. It's so fun, so exciting. And then more recently, we did like their 10 year anniversary and renew their vows, and their kids are lovely kids. And so to me, it was like kind of the gold standard in some ways, and very rewarding, because, you know, I think people would always, or people want to say, Oh, that'll never work. Like you can't meet someone on television. Like, That's so stupid. But it only had to work once. For you, for people to not be able to say that anymore. Yeah. And it did. It did it worked. It worked that one that first time really early. And they're just lovely, lovely people. And now there have been, I don't know, a lot of weddings. I've done four of them, or five of them. And there have been probably five others. So a lot of really nice, you know, beautiful things come out of it. So, but that first season was very memorable to me. Just culminating in the wedding and everything else. And then I would say the other seasons that stand out to me tend to tend to more be about locations that we went or countries or memorable shoots, and things like that, you know, more so than like, necessarily who the bachelor was or, you know who the who he ended up with? Because again, I don't really don't get like personally involved in that.


Yeah, that's great. I remember that whole Trista Ryan thing because people said, Well, maybe it's because the woman chose the man this time. That it worked. Finally.


Yeah, we have had a few bachelorettes. That's right. We have had but we've also had bachelor's, you know? But yeah, I don't know. I don't know the dynamics of it. That's for the viewers to have their own feelings about


other lots of feelings, lots of feelings.


I know. I know, a lot of opinions. And I'm sure we haven't gotten everything right all the time. But. But they've really been some very nice moments. Yeah, real connect real connections. 


Oh, it's all there category. I don't know if you know about this stuff. But you did mention that you work with like wardrobe and stuff. So Sarah P asks, do they have professionals do their hair and makeup? Or and? Or do they choose their own outfits? Or do they have wardrobe?


I'm not 100% sure, I think that information is available online. I believe the we like to provide hair and makeup for all of everyone all the time would be kind of like just impossible. So I think they come with their own wardrobe and their own and they do their hair makeup and they bring like suitcases full because they don't know how long they'll be there. So they have to bring a lot of dresses. But again, that is better for us not to provide because it's, you know, it's a window into who they are. You know, so if if a gal does her hair a certain way or her makeup a certain way or wears a certain dress that's part of you know, the image that she's presenting and whether the bachelor likes it or not, you know, that's all part of real life. Yeah. Like when you're going out like you choose? So I believe the answer to that is no, we don't provide any of that. But, you know, like, if we're doing like a boxing day, or a specific date, where they have like, very specific or job, obviously, we're ready to provide anything. But in terms of like, just work out here, like, cocktail dresses and dates and dinner. I think it's on them, as it should be, you know?


Yeah. Okay, I'll ask one more. And I think this is more in the producers too. But Nate S asked about how contestants are molded into characters, like, Are there words manipulated? And I think that that's more of a, like you said, they're just, they just are who they are, right?


Yeah, I don't again, it's not my area. And I don't. And I don't involve myself in that. But I can tell you one thing, which is that, if that were true, to if that were true on our show, it wouldn't still be on the air. It just wouldn't. It's not, you can't like, the shows that have come and gone are those shows that have done that. And that the shows that last are the ones that you feel you're watching something real happening. So I yeah, that's not my area. But I can, I can pretty much guarantee you that the goal is for people to say real things about real feelings. And that gets that air you know, not everything airs, you know, if we sit around talking about the weather, like we're not putting that on TV, and you don't want to watch that on TV. But yeah, I yeah, I think that's really the goal of the show, is that it be, you know, honest, and the producers don't you know, I think if you just look at it, like in terms of like a conversation, and you're gonna have a small piece of it, use there's some discretion over which part of it you use and don't use. But no, it's not about characters. Honestly, people always say like, where do you find these people? Like, really? Have you been out? It's like, they're everywhere. They sign up the show, like, Do you do any mean? There's no, there's no diff. And also now, especially people are so familiar with like video, taping themselves, and they're always on their phones, and they're always doing tick tock video. I mean, it's just a whole generation of people who are very comfortable being on camera. So no, it's it's not like a stretch to find, you know, funny, interesting or villainous people to behave badly. Like, yeah, or well, you know, they're just, I don't know, I've been to a singles bar in a long time. But it's like, that seems to be whatever their MO is being noticed or popular. 


It's like

it's just they’re out there out there. 


Yah, yah, yah,

yah. Yah. And it may not be people you recognize in your daily life, and you go, Oh, my God, that's crazy. Like, how is that? There's nobody would say that. It's like, yeah, people are out there who say stuff like that.


And I think you recognize it enough that it resonates. And that's why people keep watching. Like you said, you know, it's familiar enough that


Everyone has a niece who has a friend who's wacky, and yeah, it's going to be a TV show. And remember, it's a small subsection of people who are like choosing to go on the show. So they have their own reasons. 



see. 



So, how many people are around you usually? Do you have like an assistant director? And what's your general crew?


Yeah, non COVID. There's like an assistant director or a team of ADs, sort of near me and also out on the floor, working with different departments. And then there's, you know, cameras and a C's and audio mixers. And then there's an art department, there's a lighting department and, but again, we all sort of stay in the background, until needed, you know, on a stage show, every morning, there's a chance for all the departments to kind of double check everything, make sure it's all working, and lightbulbs burnout, things like that. But the crew size is like, you know, varies from anywhere from, you know, a small crew will be 60 people at a big crew will be you know, 300 


Wow. 


I like, like lean. I like the Lean shoots. You know, I like the I like sometimes like those small shoots where everybody's wearing like three hats, because, you know, you're kind of all in it together. And then, you know, sometimes on the bigger shows, you're like, oh, he does this and we have to wait for him to do this. And you know, she's not here yet. So we have to, you know,


you're happy to pitch in to do a bunch of different jobs.


Yeah, Billy's getting yelled at like, don't move the furniture.


Stay in your lane Ken!


I know. As a kid I never was good at that.

So as a kid, yeah, 


I want to go back. I think one thing you and I might have in common is both our dads were professors.


Is that right? 


What, if any feedback did you get about wanting to get into a creative field?


Was that Oh, no. Academics, TV? No, nobody watches TV. It's kind of but you know, I have to say I was the fourth of four children. So I think they understood the value of like supporting me and, and, you know, letting me explore different things. And it's sort of went pretty well right from the beginning. I mean, I just stayed in production my whole life, and I always had worked and paid my bills. So I think they figured overall and then getting into the DGA, joining the Directors Guild and starting to, you know, Assistant, direct and then direct that was like a big, big step in terms of like my legitimacy. Yeah, just like, Well, it's funny, my dad was like, in the checkout line at the supermarket one day, and I must have been like, 40. And the cover was like, well, let's see. That was 40. I was older, but the cover was like, the bachelor all over it or something. And he was like, waiting. And he was like, thumbing through it. And then and after he called me, he said, you know, he goes, like, I guess you're doing okay. I'm like, Yeah, Dad, I'm doing okay. 20 years, wife and three kids, and it's all good. Things. Okay. Hey, just checking. Just I see that. I see your show. You know, one of your programs here is mentioned in this magazine. So I guess people are watching. Yeah. 


Yeah, I think

people are watching. He wasn't watching, but at least people were watching. Has he watched


He watches Shark Tank, okay. And he watches a little feud. And he does not watch a lot of Bachelor although he'll watch and then he'll call me the next day and give me the rundown of everything the bachelor should be wearing and said wrong. And you know, 


people can't help themselves.


Right? Everyone's a critic.


And then he criticizes Mark Cuban and Kevin O'Leary, he should be thinking about it these terms, you know, he gets very academic about it. It's really fun. It's fun. Now, it's fun now, but yeah, it's a tough, it's a tough support thing. It's really, really I tell people getting into it, like, be ready, because not all your friends are going to understand like, you'll lose friends along the way. And your family really won't understand because you won't be able to go to someone's, you know, birthday party, and you're going to miss a family vacation. Because it's freelance, we were all freelance, we're all day to day, and we're all scrambling and hustling for work. And that never stops. And, and your support system has to understand that, you know, you don't make plans, you know, you're, you're, you're available for dinner, I don't know, I'm shooting. So the answer is always no, you know, and for some reason, you get out early, maybe you can join some friends, but it's a really, really, really difficult business, but really, really rewarding. And it attracts a certain kind of person, but not for everybody. 


I was just talking to a friend about that yesterday, who has a 23 year old son who's a creative type. And I was telling her that I could relate to him, because I feel like he's the type that is going to pursue it. whenever you're creative person, you just have to go on your creative path and other people won't understand. But the creative people do understand.


 That's right. And it really, there really is no option. I mean, you can do other things, but you know, you won't be happy. And then, you know, if you're not happy, then how great can you be you know, so we try to encourage at all and then you know, my sons are going into it. My sons are all in production. And it's like scary. It's like, Don't you want a real job? You know, and then but I'd be you know, the last person to discourage them from pursuing it because you know, it's an amazing it's an amazing life you just you have to you hopefully have the earlier loved ones support you. Yeah, yeah. Encourage you.


Well, I mean, your career has been exemplary. A real touchstone for them to get to like,


It's really just luck because I mean, I've worked on brilliant shows that lasted one season. So there's no like rhyme or reason or you know, how I met, how I even got involved with Bachelor’s like a weird little, you know, it was like the sideline of a kid's soccer game was like watching my like eight year old play soccer. There was another dad there watching his kid. And we started talking and that sort of led to my involvement in the Bachelor. So, you know, my advice is go to your kids soccer games. And they hide everyone. And you know, just weird, right? 


Yeah. 


So random.


Right place, right time.


super lucky. Yes. All timing and luck. And who you know, and when you meet, you know, just crazy, right? It's longevity. I liked it. You know, I, my friends from high school who went into like tech, and they're all at Google and whatever. They, they always say, like, how do you live? You know, how do you wear? What are you doing six months from now? And I'm like, I have no idea. And I'm like, What are you doing six months from now. And they say, I'm getting in my car, I'm driving to my office, I'm getting my desk and I'm doing my job. And, their attitude towards me is how do you live that way? And my feeling towards them is how do you live that way? I'd feel so trapped. And like, I couldn't, you know, I'm not sure I could resolve that within myself. So it's interesting.


Yeah, I think the message, the lesson is, be true to your heart, right? Be true to who you are. And it works out. I was gonna say that the longevity, maybe you feel like it's luck to have, you know, met the person at the soccer game and stuff. But you wouldn't have lasted with that franchise. 20 years, because of luck. You know, that was because of your, how you treat people and your work ethic and your skill set. And, and, and, and on and on. So there might be some luck. But there's a lot of other elements that are you. 


Okay, if you say so 


I say so when you need to accept it. 



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I mean, it is just amazing. When I tell people that I'm interviewing you and what the things that you've done, and it's like what, wow, I asked him this, ask him this, ask him that. I mean, the shows that you work on are really cultural icons, you know.


It's very unusual, it's very cool. And yeah, you know, well, I must say, it's not very glamorous, it's not all glamorous, you know, it's just a lot of hard work. And people think it's like, you know, Hollywood is some kind of dry party and glamorous, like, walk the red carpet. And, you know, you did enough of it to No, it's just, you know, most of the time, it's, it's just the job and you kind of like doing the job, you're like, you know, and then there's moments that are just incredible that you could never have anywhere else or, you know, but most of the time, it's kind of like a lot of meetings and planning.


 And

yeah, I think the core of it though, like you said earlier, you know, you're a storyteller. And that's what's so cool. In the end, the meetings and the, the sitting in the track and all of that, like what you're doing in the end, it's all adding up to is, is a creative is a creative mode of storytelling. And that's just fun. You know, in the end, you're it's all adding up to telling stories.


That's right, we're always servicing the end goal, and sort of clarity, and, you know, being concise and sort of, you know, drilling down on what that is, and understanding the viewers, I guess, to some degree, but it is fun, and it's rewarding. And it's the people . it's an unusual band of misfits. And I think for people who don't have that, it's sort of like, wow, that's kind of cool.


Yeah. You made it happen. I think that's really admirable. I love people that follow their passion.


But it's the only place I fit in. I mean, really, Elizabeth like I would like in high school, like, I was like, kind of a misfit. Like I didn't really have a group. Exactly. I didn't really know where to fit in. I wasn't sure what I was good at, you know. And then my first day on my first show They gave me a walkie talkie. They said, Go down the end of the street. When we go rolling, we stopped the cars, and we'll cut you let him through. And I remember walking down there and thinking, I can do this. Like it was the first time in my life, I really understood the instruction. I understood the goal, understood the purpose. And I was good at it. Like I would schmooze the people in the car, so they wouldn't get mad, you know, and then, and then I came back that day, and I gave them in my walkie talkie. And they said, you know, we want you back tomorrow. And that was in that was it because I was hired for one day, you know, and I was hooked. And I went home, and I just I thanked my lucky stars. I was like, I was I really? Like, thank you, thank you, thank you, for like, this happening and falling into my lap at 20 years old. Because, you know, for some people, you're 30 or 40, you know, and to have it happen then, and I knew then I knew one day, I knew I was done. This was it. These are my people. Yeah. And that's, I think that's sort of the hard thing to find. Sometimes it's your people, you know,

but you didn't know then that it was going to be directing, right. I mean, I've read enough about that. It was a bit of a circuitous path to get Yeah, yeah. You just do it with production.

It just Yes. I knew I was joining the circus. You know, we really are we're like carnies. You know, we like go from town to town. We put up our tent, we do the show. And I knew that I knew that was for me. That sort of, you know, craziness.


It really is joining the circus. I've gotten people jobs of a day later. They're like, I don't think I can come back tomorrow. And I'm like, that's cool. Like, I you know, I told you, you know, right away, and they didn't get it. Like, they just didn't get it. They didn't want to clean a bathroom or carry ice to address it. You know, like, yeah, they, they didn't understand it. So. But but you know, you said that's, yeah, totally good. Yeah, try everything. But he's like this ladder, the circuitous route, I think, I think everyone it's sort of, it's just a circuitous by nature. And that is sort of better. But again, you have to embrace that you have to embrace the unemployment between shows between projects and looking for work, and putting yourself out there. And also like, what direction you go, like, you're going to try to learn editing or camera art or lighting or production, like production, coordinating production management line producing budgets, are you going to be on that end? Are you going to be on the writing end of the story, and are the producing cast? That none of that has a none of that has like a playbook. You know, whereas in the corporate world, you're sort of like, okay, I do this, and then I do this. And then three years later, I can move to this. And then in 10 years, I'll be here, as the salaries are theirs. And that is very comforting to a lot of people. And for me, it was terrifying. It was like, Oh, my God, three years. So I think like, what, like, who makes those rules? Like I wanted to be in a place that had no rules.


I had a similar thing in my first job out of college. Well, I first went to cooking school because I thought I wanted to be a food writer. And then I was like, Oh, I guess I everyone was saying, you need a job, you need benefits. And I worked in PR in food. And it was this assistant account, executive account executive, Senior Account Executive Director of accounting, I mean, all this stuff. And I was like, I was miserable. I was stifled and I was like, this is the ladder. And after nine months, I quit. And the higher up people were so mad at me, they were like, no, no, no, you don't quit you, you go up the ladder. And I was like, I am out. I'm a creative person. Like, I can't get on this ladder. I am terrified of this ladder. But they just felt like they in fact, one of them lectured me and said, This isn't school. You don't get summer break after nine months. You don't just quit and I was like, I'm not looking for summer break. I'm just I'm off this hamster wheel. Like, I don't want this job. But it was really crazy because they were like personally affronted that I didn't want their thing and I was like listen different things for different people. This just isn't me that's


that's just it were they were jealous that they couldn't move because they had kids and mortgages or whatever I could have been. Maybe that's it too. You know, you get stuck sometimes. 



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Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.


It's really nice to talk to you.