Barbara Legere experienced every parent's ultimate nightmare: her child died. Her son took his own life, after years of struggling with mental health issues and addiction. After an intense period of feeling "in a fog," Barbara started writing, which eventually became a bestselling book, called "Keven's Choice."
In this episode, Barbara shares very personal stories about Keven's life as a boy; his challenges with drugs and his time incarcerated; his stints in rehab; and her experiences on this journey with her beloved son, including why she never gave him "tough love" and what it has been like to survive his loss and to keep going. Barbara has endured plenty of judgement from others along the way, but her unconditional love for her son, and her empathy for others motivate her to spread awareness of substance abuse and mental illness. She recently released a second book, entitled "Talk to Me I'm Grieving."
In addition to writing, Barbara is a volunteer for for the non-profit TIP (Trauma Intervention Program) where she is called on scene by first responders to give emotional support and help to those involved in traumatic incidents, typically involving the death of a loved one. She also advocates for grief awareness, suicide prevention, and compassion for substance abuse disorder.
If you or anyone you know needs support, text 988 for the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
In this episode:
02:27: What Keven was like as a child
07:02: The day Keven ended his life
12:20: Best things to say and do--and not to say and do--after someone has lost a loved one
20:08: Keven's experiences in jail and rehab
25:10: Barbara's journey writing her first book
30:29: The TIP (Trauma Intervention Program) for which Barbara volunteers
33:16: Confronting the stigma around mental illness and substance abuse, and judgement from neighbors and strangers
37:48: Barbara's advice for people who are grieving--and their friends
Want to know more about Barbara?
Want to know more about "What It's Like To..."?
Barbara Legere experienced every parent's ultimate nightmare: her child died. Her son took his own life, after years of struggling with mental health issues and addiction. After an intense period of feeling "in a fog," Barbara started writing, which eventually became a bestselling book, called "Keven's Choice."
In this episode, Barbara shares very personal stories about Keven's life as a boy; his challenges with drugs and his time incarcerated; his stints in rehab; and her experiences on this journey with her beloved son, including why she never gave him "tough love" and what it has been like to survive his loss and to keep going. Barbara has endured plenty of judgement from others along the way, but her unconditional love for her son, and her empathy for others motivate her to spread awareness of substance abuse and mental illness. She recently released a second book, entitled "Talk to Me I'm Grieving."
In addition to writing, Barbara is a volunteer for for the non-profit TIP (Trauma Intervention Program) where she is called on scene by first responders to give emotional support and help to those involved in traumatic incidents, typically involving the death of a loved one. She also advocates for grief awareness, suicide prevention, and compassion for substance abuse disorder.
If you or anyone you know needs support, text 988 for the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
In this episode:
02:27: What Keven was like as a child
07:02: The day Keven ended his life
12:20: Best things to say and do--and not to say and do--after someone has lost a loved one
20:08: Keven's experiences in jail and rehab
25:10: Barbara's journey writing her first book
30:29: The TIP (Trauma Intervention Program) for which Barbara volunteers
33:16: Confronting the stigma around mental illness and substance abuse, and judgement from neighbors and strangers
37:48: Barbara's advice for people who are grieving--and their friends
Want to know more about Barbara?
Want to know more about "What It's Like To..."?
Barbara: I hear a lot, you know, Oh, you're so strong. And a lot of mothers that have lost a child hear that, and we don't really have a choice. We appear strong on the outside, but on the inside, we're grieving every single day of our lives. And that's just something that doesn't end.
Elizabeth: If you've listened to this podcast before, you know, I interview people who do interesting, unusual things that most of us have never done. [00:01:00] Often those things are aspirational. Wouldn't it be amazing to be a rock star or win an Olympic medal? But sometimes my guests happen into their experiences.
They're things none of us would have chosen, and yet how these people are handling their circumstances is extraordinary. Today is one of those stories. My guest, Barbara Legere, lost her son Keven to suicide.
Since his death, Barbara has become a bestselling author of two books and advocates for grief awareness, suicide prevention, and compassion for substance abuse disorder. Barbara, welcome to my podcast.
Barbara: Thank you so much for having me here. I appreciate it.
Elizabeth: I appreciate you being here and first of all my condolences for what you've gone through and my appreciation for what you're doing now to spread awareness and help to others.
It’s an important topic that I think many people are hesitant to confront because it’s frightening and sad and overwhelming. So
Barbara: thank [00:02:00] you. Well, thank you. And yes, you're right. It is. It's very uncomfortable for a lot of people. So that's basically why I wrote the book to relieve some of that, hopefully.
Elizabeth: Can you tell me about your circumstances? I'd love to first know about your son, Keven. What was he like? What did he enjoy doing? What kind of kid was he? Thank you. That's
Barbara: My favorite topic. It's talking about him and keeping his memory alive and letting people know that he was a wonderful person. I raised him as a single mom.
He was my only child and my mom helped me raise him. I lived with her and he was basically a happy go lucky kid for the most part until he got to be in about third grade and he started having anxiety and depression, So I did, have him treated for that and I did have him see a therapist, but Keven was the most loyal, generous friend you would ever want to have.
I mean, he [00:03:00] was constantly giving things away. If his friend liked a toy, he'd give it to him. When he was older, if they liked something he was wearing, he'd give it to them. That's just how he was. And he was quirky and funny. He loved cars. That was his big thing was cars. He was like an encyclopedia.
Everywhere we went, I got an ongoing Tutorial. Yes, yes, that's this, and it has a this engine, and that tires, and those wheels. I'm like, okay. He was a joy to my life, um, yet when he did discover drugs and start using, that was the turning point of his life almost ending before it actually ended because it changed him so much and it just became a living nightmare for both of us, for him and for me.
What age was that? He started using heroin when he was 17 and then [00:04:00] he started using heroin and meth a little bit later, I think the combination of the two is It's really bad a lot of people don't talk about meth anymore, but it's still alive and well out there and it's what can put you in psychosis and make you do crazy things you would never do otherwise.
And it was something he did while he was on meth that landed him in prison. And prison for 16 months is when I really noticed the biggest change in him. Um, when he came out, he was not the same person, and it was very sad, hard to watch. And three years later, he was gone at the age of 29.
Elizabeth: Oh, I'm so sorry. There's just nothing. I know it sounds like a cliche. You've heard it a thousand times, but the thought of losing a child is just so heartbreaking. I don't know how you've had the strength to take all of your experience and your pain to write about it and blog [00:05:00] about it and talk about it to share with others.
Barbara: That's my healing process. That for me is helps me get through each day because if I can number one, help somebody else, and number two, keep Keven's memory alive in a positive way, then that's enough for me. I'll feel like that's all I really I want to do or care about and that helps me move forward each day.
And I hear a lot, you know, Oh, you're so strong. And a lot of mothers that have lost a child hear that, and we don't really have a choice. We, we appear strong on the outside, but on the inside, we're grieving every single day of our lives. And, and that's just something that doesn't end.
Elizabeth: I once heard grief described as like stones put in your pocket.
And when they're first put in there. They're so heavy and you notice them every time you [00:06:00] move and they never go away. And so that weight and that feeling is always there as you go along through your life. It's not as pronounced as it was those first days and weeks and months, but it's always there. Do you feel like that's accurate?
Barbara: Oh, that's beautiful. That is so accurate. Definitely. I mean the beginning you can't move. It was like I had a physical pain in my chest. It felt like someone was sitting on my chest for weeks. And then the first few months you just can't believe that you walk around in a state of... shock and sadness and despair and what am I going to do now?
And but it does gradually lessen. It doesn't really get easier. It just gets, to the point where you can live within it better. And so that's where I am now.
Elizabeth: So you don't have to answer this if this is too much, but did his life end [00:07:00] in prison?
Barbara: No, no, he was out for three years, and he was living with me and he had warned me many times over the years that he was probably going to end his own life.
Um, in my first book, I open with that chapter of him and I arguing all day long. He wanted me to give him permission, and so, when it happened, um, he hadn't talked about it for two years. So, in that way, I was shocked, but in another way, I wasn't surprised. But on that morning when I woke up, he was in his room crying and that, you know, alerted me that something was wrong.
I went in there and we talked and I hugged him and I'll never forget that hug because he wasn't a huggy person. We usually didn't hug and he let me hug him that morning and I remember just enjoying it. And then, um, 15 minutes later, [00:08:00] I heard the gunshot and I knew immediately what it was. I ran up the stairs thinking in my mind, maybe he was cleaning the gun.
Maybe he just accidentally shot it. Maybe, maybe, maybe, you know, but I knew.
Elizabeth: So heartbreaking that anybody gets to that point that they have no hope. You loved him so much. You still love him and that any person would feel so alone. And at the end, to feel that I, I'm
Barbara: so sorry. Thank you so much. you know, one thing I, I tell people not to say in my book, but it's actually true for me.
Um, I wouldn't recommend saying to someone who's lost someone that way, well, at least he's not suffering anymore. Yet, it's true. It's true. He is not suffering anymore. And to watch him the last few years just be [00:09:00] despondent and hopeless and filled with self-hate. I mean, he felt that we would all be better off without him because he thought he was causing my life so much stress and, worry and fear.
And so, in that way, I totally understood. I was never mad at him. I never looked at it as selfish. I got it. I got why he did it. I wish he wouldn't have, of course, and I'd take all that stress back in a second, but, you know, at least I do find a bit of peace knowing that he is, he is not suffering.
Elizabeth: And I suppose that's where the mental illness part plays in is that a person like that can't fully understand the words that you're saying.
Can't believe them, you know, when you're saying, you're not a burden. You're not causing me distress. I love you. You're contributing to this life. And somehow those words aren't penetrating. I mean, I know that's true for [00:10:00] everybody. Not everyone can always receive,
compliments or the words that we all have self-doubt to some degree, but people with mental illness, it's just a such a profound degree that no amount of outreach and love and support will necessarily reach them.
Barbara: That is so true. And I think so many people, when they have a loss like this, they feel guilty and the immediate thing everyone says.
I mean, all his friends said it, my family said it, I thought it, what could I have done different? What more can I have done? And I think that's such a common thing, it's very common. But I tell people, there's nothing else you could have done. If you love that person, and that person knew you loved them, unconditionally, you offered to help them and you were there for them.
There's really nothing more.
Elizabeth: I'm so glad that you have that perspective now, I don't know if [00:11:00] you were immediately there, but that really it's true. And it's the healthiest way to be able to move on. It's not just a justification. It actually is the absolute truth.
I haven't been in that situation, but. Yeah. you hear that story over and over. People say, I didn't do enough. What else could I have done to help that person? So, I love that you're able to put it in the correct perspective.
Barbara: Yeah. It's the only way I could get through. And it breaks my heart to see so many people still blaming themselves. If you can really make the decision to let that go, it frees you up a lot emotionally.
Elizabeth: You mentioned a few minutes ago about things that people say to people that are grieving that are often not very helpful at all.
Um, you know, at least he's in a better place or he's not suffering that sort of thing. Can you give me some examples of other things not to say or perhaps things to say? Because what I have noticed oftentimes [00:12:00] when there's a loss, people who want to comfort. Just say, well, I don't know what to do.
And so then they don't do anything at all. And I've often thought, well, at least send a note, at least say that you're thinking about the person. But anyway, I would love to hear your thoughts.
Barbara: on it. Absolutely. And, and what you just said is so common. People don't know what to do, so they do nothing. And that hurts more than anything.
I'd rather have someone say something inappropriate than not say anything at all, because so many of my friends that are in the same boat, they've lost friends. People trickle away because of the discomfort. But to answer your question, part two of my book, that's what it's all about, is what to say, what not to say, and why.
Off the top of my head, I'd say the most common thing that people do is to try and relate your loss to a loss that they have. Because they're trying to say they understand what you're going through. [00:13:00] Um, for example, I had a friend tell me, oh, well, I lost my brother and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
And I'm thinking to myself, but that was your brother, not your son. And, if it was her son, it would have been okay for her to say that because she does know how I feel. But to say, I know how you feel, I lost my brother. That doesn't help. That just kind of, It makes you feel like, no, you don't understand.
Um, also, any phrase that starts with the two words, at least, is not a good thing to say. I mean, really watch that one because it's totally dismissing the person's loss. At least you can have another child. At least he was really old. At least she is not suffering anymore. Or at least... You know, you have 10 more children.
All those things are like saying, at least this, so, what you just went through doesn't matter that much. That's how it feels to [00:14:00] receive that kind of a statement. So, I'm against that one. I think saying, I'm sorry for your loss, even though it sounds like such a cliche, and everybody says it, if you're sincerely sorry, I think it's totally fine to say, I am so sincerely sorry for your loss and I'm here for you.
If you want to talk, I'm going to check in on you. I also warn not to ask somebody, what can I do for you? Or let me know if, let me know if you need anything or want to talk, puts all the burden on the person that's grieving and we're not going to pick up the phone. We're not going to.
Elizabeth: We're not going to organize a meal train for yourself. You're not going to start planning.
Barbara: I mean, I couldn't do anything. Luckily, I had a wonderful boyfriend at the time and he came down here and he took care of everything. I mean, he cooked, he cleaned, he fed the dogs. I was just numb. I couldn't think straight. And so, I have a whole list of [00:15:00] things that you can say or do that takes the burden off the griever and still allows you to say to them, you know, I'm here for you, I'm going to come over Tuesday night with a meal, and if you don't want to see me, that's fine, I'm going to leave it here, or, you know, would you rather have a gift card to DoorDash, or, I know you're going to be going to the memorial, can I come over and take your car to the car wash, or pick up something at dry cleaners.
I mean, there's so many little things that you can do that don't seem like a big deal, but to the person that's grieving, it's a huge lift off their shoulders, to not have to worry about some of the details, because at the beginning, it's so unfair, but if you're going to have a service, you have to focus on answering all these questions about what do you want the service?
What music? Put together a video, write an obituary. I had to do all those things. And it's just overwhelming. It's overwhelming.
Elizabeth: Just dealing with your [00:16:00] grief is overwhelming enough. And then there's all those logistics. It's enough to just put anyone in kind of a fog state, I would imagine, or can you remember what that was like those first days?
Barbara: Oh, yeah, it was a fog state. I mean, the first day I just screamed and yelled and cried most of the day. I mean, my neighbors came running because they heard me screaming. Most of them stood across the street and gawked all day because they didn't like my son. He was a drug addict. That's how they looked at him.
They never ever have still said anything to me. Only two neighbors have said something to me.
Elizabeth: Wow. So that hurt deeply. That's that hurt. Deeply. So lacking in compassion, they never saw the person behind the drug use.
Barbara: No, they didn't. They saw him under the influence. They saw the police at our house a bunch of times.
They saw the paramedics at our house a bunch of times, but they didn't see [00:17:00] Keven for who he was, but everyone who knows him, they knew the truth of who he was and he had some really great friends that cared about him deeply and yes, it's very numbing in the beginning, you're in a fog for sure.
Elizabeth: So how did you find your way through that? I know you started writing. At what point did you start doing that? And did you know that was going to be therapeutic for you? Have you always been a writer?
Barbara: I've always written. I never had anything published.
I just wrote journals for myself and things like that, but Keven and I had talked about writing a book about his recovery and how he, you know, overcame and we had high hopes and so about three months after he died, this idea in my head would not go away. It was like him saying to me, mom, you need to write that book.
Mom, you need to write the book. Mom, over and over. And I didn't [00:18:00] want to, I, I told everyone, I don't want to write a book, but it wouldn't go away. And at that point I decided to run it by someone. I had a consultation with someone about it. And she said, you definitely should write that book. So, I joined a writing group and just sat down every day and wrote a little bit.
And next thing I knew I had a book. And it was very healing for me. I share a lot in the book, and the first book, Keven's Choice, I think the main thing that I want people to get out of that book is to look at what it's like for the life of someone who has a substance use disorder and or mental illness, and to really see what they go through.
So that hopefully they'll have a little more compassion and also to see what the parents go through. I mean, there's thousands and thousands of us out there that are watching their children die before they're even [00:19:00] gone. That's what it feels like. I feel like I started grieving him years before he actually died because I was.
He wasn't the same person. it's a very, ugly, sad life. And of course, he tried rehab and it's just not as simple as people think. People think, go to rehab, get better, carry on. Not that simple. If it was, we wouldn't have this issue.
Elizabeth: So I would imagine it gets really challenging as soon as they turn 18 and they're adults, you don't have control to just say you should go to rehab.
You should go to the doctor. You need to do this. I mean, it's hard to do that enough with teenagers tell them to do things, but, you know, when he was an adult and making his own decisions, I can see how that would just be sort of your heart being torn apart each time. Like he's making decisions as a grown man and you don't wanna [00:20:00] see him going down this path, but at a certain point, what could you do?
How, how did you deal with that? Well,
Barbara: Keven, three weeks after he turned 18, he got arrested for the first time. Didn't take long, and he got arrested for possession, which immediately put him in the system. And in some ways, that was positive, only because he did get free treatment that first time. Um, the county paid for it.
They said, okay, we'll erase this felony if you go through treatment. And so he did that. Unfortunately, he did use again, and it just started the cycle of in and out of jail, in and out of rehab, in and out of the behavioral health units. it just started that cycle for him, and it was hard for him to get a job with a felony on his record.
it just changes everything, but he and I were super close, and he usually, listened to me Sometimes I literally got on my knees in front of him and begged him to go to [00:21:00] rehab. I would just cry and beg him, please, please just go. And that would usually get to him. but you know, the other thing is that when you want rehab and you're ready, if you don't have the best insurance in the world, you can't just call up and get a bed and walk in there that day.
And oftentimes three days later, he was like, I'm not going. I wanted to go Wednesday, but it's Saturday and I'm not going, so it was a nightmare. It was very difficult.
Elizabeth: Yeah, I've heard that from someone else I interviewed that the system is so backlogged that it could be months before a bed opens up or a room opens up.
Barbara: And, and that's with the private ones. The county ones, oh, you're waiting months to get in, to get a bed. The private ones, even when you pay a copay, and your insurance pays the rest. It's still so expensive. It's really expensive. Luckily, my mom helped me out a lot with that. But it's also a financial burden on a family that people don't realize. [00:22:00]
You know, I have people that went bankrupt that I know because they were trying to save their child.
Elizabeth: Yeah. Often, we just hear about celebrities. Like you wrote a blog on your website about Matthew Perry's book. We hear about these high-profile people who have so much money and they can keep entering themselves into these private rehab facilities because they have tens of millions of dollars or something.
Most of the people out there don't have those kind of opportunities and yet still addiction is addiction
Barbara: Yeah, it is and it's really sad because around here and I live in Southern California in Orange County And it's known as rehab riviera near here because we have so many people fly from other states to be in the nice weather so anyhow, what happens so often is that someone gets kicked out because they're using, they always have a rule, if you relapse, you're out the door.
Then what you see is all of these [00:23:00] homeless people, if they can't get back home, because they have no money, their family won't pay for them to come home. And it just gets worse and worse and worse. That's one reason I didn't do tough love with Keven. I don't believe that tough love works in my personal opinion.
It does for some people. I've talked to addicts who said the only thing that saved me was my parents kicking me out of the house. But when I kicked Keven out of the house, things got so much worse. He was left for dead in an alley. And luckily someone found him. He was unconscious on life support for three days.
I had no idea where he was. He was out in the streets living there. It didn't even dawn on me or occur to me that anything was going on. And he finally woke up and gave them my number. But that kind of thing happens all the time. It really does. That's why I also tell people carry Narcan, even if you don't know anybody who uses, because you might be the person one day hearing someone [00:24:00] yell, does anybody have Narcan?
Because they found someone in the restroom passed out on drugs. You could save a life. You could save a life with that.
Elizabeth: You have been through so much just thinking of your years as a mother, just trying to go to sleep at night and not know where your kid is. I mean, I'll say kid. I know he was an adult, but I think your kids are always your kids.
Barbara: I think of him as a kid. I still think of him as my kid.
Elizabeth: So you did start writing and then what was the process of, getting your first book published and you are now an advocate and a volunteer and this has become your life's work. You're using your pain to help other people.
Barbara: Yes, and I feel lucky that I'm able to do that because I don't have a job, I don't have a spouse. I don't have other kids. I really have this this is my life and I I have other friends say gosh, I feel bad. [00:25:00] I'm not doing anything I'm yes; you are you have children you have a husband you have a job It's not for everyone, but for me once I got the book written, which I don't think I could have done without my writing group. We meet every single day except Sunday.
Oh, we're one hour on zoom at 10 a. m and you don't have to show up every day, But I almost always do because they're my family now these people held my hand They encouraged me and they taught me so much about publishing about writing marketing everything you need to know and through them, that's how I got my book published. I used someone that they recommended for my first book, and I've learned so much. My second book, I, I went with someone different, and it's called hybrid publishing.
So you're not really self-publishing, but it's not a publisher because [00:26:00] publishers don't pick up books for people like first time writers. I mean, if you're John Grisham or someone like that, of course they're going to pick up books. But, it costs money to write a book. And I will never make the money back that I spent on the first book.
Never. I mean, it's just impossible. Well, unless I sold like a million copies. The second book, I went a different route. I feel much better about it. I have a lot more input from my publisher and she's marketing it. She loves the book as much as I do. We'll see how it does, but it's not about the money, obviously.
It's just about getting the message out there. And I really hope that this book helps people. People have told me after reading it, about 20 people have read it so far that it really opened their eyes, and it helped them. That's all I hope for.
Elizabeth: Well, and the first book has done so well and anyone can go look at it on Amazon and read some of the reviews and just see how [00:27:00] much it has touched people because you were so vulnerable and open with what you've been through. And I think that that's what can really touch people, whether they're going through this or are not, and just need to be educated to what's happening in the world.
Yeah, I think it's really valuable to open your eyes and your honesty is what is resonating with people.
Barbara: Yeah, I’m an open book and I don't mind sharing everything. I know I've gotten some judgments from people and some of the things I did, but I don't have any regrets. And I know that everything I did was out of love and to hopefully keep Keven alive. It didn't work, but I know I did my best.
Elizabeth: it's interesting that point you made to about, tough love, you've heard it work for some people, didn't work for your circumstance.
I think it's really about knowing your kid or the person that you're in relationship [00:28:00] with because no approach works for every person. I mean, I see that I have 2 kids and I can't parent them the exact same way, they're different people, they need different things from me and different from my husband, you know, and so you said, you're so close to him and that is really key.
You knew him, you know what he responded to and what he wouldn't have responded to. And so, I'm glad that you can look back and say, I don't have regrets because I did it out of love. I did what I knew was best for him.
Barbara: Yeah. Thank you. And yes, you're absolutely right.
It depends on each individual. You have to know the person and. I did what I thought was best for Keven.
I just thought of something else that's really important that I tell to people, especially in child loss. One thing that helped me the most is my support group. I was already in a support group for parents who lost someone to overdose [00:29:00] because there was a young man in my life who was like a son to me, literally.
And he passed away five years before Keven did. So I had already been in this group for five years. And so when Keven died, they already knew me. They knew Keven. Keven had gone to some meetings with me even, and they were there for me. But even if I hadn't known them, groups like that where it's very specific to your type of loss, those are the only people you're going to find that really, really understand what you're going through.
Other people want to understand, but it's one of those things you can't unless you've been there. And their support you know, we socialize together, we laugh, we cry.
You're there for each other. So that's one thing I recommend when you're ready is to try and find a support group specific to your loss. So you can meet other people that are in that same boat with you and you can make some really great friends that way.
Elizabeth: And then I [00:30:00] suppose, you're a support to other people.
Barbara: It goes both ways. Oh yeah, definitely. And that brings some satisfaction too, knowing that you're there helping somebody else and they're there helping you. Absolutely. It's a win-win that way.
Elizabeth: I'm interested also in you're a volunteer for a nonprofit group called the Trauma Intervention Program.
And I'd love you to tell me some about that, how you got involved in some of the work that you do. I
Barbara: I love being a volunteer for this organization. They're phenomenal, what they do and just everything they do for their volunteers. When Keven died, they sent a TIP, that's what we call it for short trauma intervention program TIP.
They sent a TIP volunteer to my home that day. What the volunteers do is when there's a death in the home, It doesn't have to be a death, but any kind of trauma, a rape, a death, a severe car accident, anything like that. The first [00:31:00] responders are not able to give comfort to the person. They can't stay with the person.
They have a job to do, and then they have to move on. And so when they... made this organization about 34 years ago, they started training people to be the one that sits with the person until the coroner comes with the mortuary, to give them resources, to comfort them as best they can, to give them information because you're all sitting going, what, what's going to happen now?
You don't know what's going to happen. That's a
Elizabeth: great idea. It's so rewarding. Most people have never been in this situation before, or if they have, it's a slightly different situation. They may be lost a parent and now it's a different person in their life. And so to have a comforting person who's knowledgeable too, that's brilliant.
Barbara: Yeah, it's so rewarding for me. I really, really get a lot out of it. All of us do. it takes a special person to be able to do it, but the people that do [00:32:00] it all say that they find a lot of rewards from it. Just being there for someone, like for example, I was with a man once, who lost his 18-year-old son
He did have one medical issue, but he had a headache. He went to take a nap. His dad checked on him and he was dead, 18 years old. And so this man was alone with his son in a hospital room for hours, waiting for someone from his family it took them hours to get there. So I was able to be there with that dad and I will never forget him.
I will never forget his son. I will never forget how it made me feel to be able to be the person there for him at that time. it's something you shouldn't have to go through alone and a lot of times people are alone.
But it's a very rewarding thing.
Elizabeth: Yeah, it sounds like a wonderful program. You mentioned some of your neighbor's reactions to Keven and you probably encountered some of that throughout your life. And maybe since his death, do you [00:33:00] feel like there are common misconceptions that people have about, those who are dealing with substance use disorder, or even about people who take their own lives.
Barbara: Absolutely. It's so sad. So many people, either don't understand it, or just choose to judge it because... they think that they're bad people or there's something wrong with them. Um, I tell parents all the time the three most dangerous words, you can say, are 'not my kid' because it happens in all kinds of families.
It doesn't matter how much love and support your child has. But yes, there is a lot of stigma involved in mental health and addiction, and I, I just hope that ends. I think it's getting a little bit better, but not very much. And what happens is people know that they're being looked down upon, and that affects their self-worth, and it makes it harder for them to ask for help.[00:34:00]
And if they have a mental illness, on the outside, people may not see what's going on, but on the inside, the person's thinking about killing themselves every day, and they're afraid to tell anybody. They don't want people to know they're all messed up inside. And it's just really sad. And as a parent, you know, I know I've been judged.
People have said things to me. And I, I try to just tell myself they don't know any better or, I just try to not let it get to me because I don't have room emotionally to let things like that bother me anymore. But yeah, there's been some pretty incredible things said to me. I think I share some of them in the book, but the most common thought is, that's not going to happen to your family because your family's fine. And it does happen in so many families for so many different
Elizabeth: reasons. And a wide range of families, like you said, like, oh, yeah, I have a lot of money or not very much [00:35:00] money. They can live in a big city or a rural area you know, there's a whole gamut. it can happen to anybody.
Barbara: It really can.
Elizabeth: I think it is admirable that you've been able to try to block out the judgy people and say I don't have room for that because it is true.
There's only so much that we can be dealing with at one time and you're always will be processing your grief and keeping your memories of Keven, but then you're using your time and your facilities productively, rather than taking in all this negativity from other people because they didn't know him. They don't know you. Why people feel entitled to judge is so wrong.
Barbara: I know it's, it's amazing. I have one neighbor walked by about six months after Keven died and he's one of the two that said he was sorry because he knew Keven and he liked Keven. He actually took the time to get to know Keven since Keven was a kid, but he said, yeah, I [00:36:00] joined that little group across the street from you and they were okay.
And that did take me about a year to get over. I was so angry. I wanted to, well, I did do something. I made this big banner that hangs across the front of my house on the anniversary of my son's death. And it just says, Keven, we love and miss you and a big picture of him and it has the suicide hotline phone number on it.
So I, I want to remind them every year that this happened. And he mattered. And even if you don't care, I care. And a lot of people do care. A lot of people's lives are different because he's gone. And that goes for every single family who's lost someone. It changes. If it's your spouse and all of a sudden, they're gone and you've been with them for 30 years, your life is never the same.
Elizabeth: I'd like to [00:37:00] add, you said a lot of people's lives are different because he was gone. And a lot of people's lives are different because he was here also.
Barbara: Exactly. Thank you for saying that. I really believe that too. His friends stay in touch with me. That means the world to me and, they'll share little memories and, you know, we talk about his giggle because he had this funny cute little giggle and he was like
kind of a big macho looking dude, and I just loved that.
Elizabeth: Is there any last thing you'd like to share? Maybe a story or a bit of advice for somebody else who is going through any part of your experience?
Barbara: Yes, I would like to say to any grieving person out there and especially grieving parents, be very gentle with yourself.
It's different for everybody and it takes time, but you [00:38:00] will, you will be able to continue your life and hopefully you will find something that brings you joy again. You will be able to laugh and sing and dance again, but it may seem like you'll never be able to. But you will. It's just such a painful thing.
And then to the people that know someone, please remember that it's not something that lasts a few months or a year. It's a lifetime. And if you could just write down their child's birthday and the day that they died on your calendar and acknowledge that every single year and text or call your friend and say, hey, I lit a candle for Keven today.
That means so much to me. I get choked up just thinking about it because there's people that are thinking about my son today and that care and that know what I'm going through. And it's such a simple thing but it, it speaks volumes and it's really important not to forget your friends that are going through [00:39:00] something like this or your family.
Let's talk about Keven. My sister and I do, but the rest of them don't bring him up. I do. I just bring him up at every holiday. I talk about him. I'm trying to train them that hey, you know, it's okay. You can talk about him. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people just don't talk about the person anymore. They act like they were never here and that's the most painful thing about losing a child is It's feeling like they didn't matter and they're no longer here.
So, you know, that really hurt.
Elizabeth: Yeah. Gone, but never forgotten. But to keep talking about them is really important and to keep the memories and the joy alive.
Barbara: Yeah, absolutely. I do believe he's still with me. I really do. And if he is or not, I believe he is. So he is.
Elizabeth: Well, you said that [00:40:00] he was the one prompting you to write the first book and you're writing and you're advocating and you're volunteering. So that is him with you.
Barbara: Yeah, I think he's proud of me. I really do. I think he's blown away. Like, Mom, you're so shy and you're so introverted. What are you doing?
Elizabeth: You're helping change the world. That's what you're doing, Barbara.
Barbara: Oh, gosh. Thank you so much. I mean, I think we all can change the world, kindness and compassion. I mean, those are underrated.
Kindness is huge. Just being kind to someone.
Elizabeth: You can make a choice every day. How am I going to appear? How am I going to confront, especially strangers, but also the people closest to us, who are sometimes the people we end up taking things out on the most, because they'll take it.
Barbara: Yeah, and that's what we all do.
Elizabeth: Yeah, just try to be a little kind. It goes a long way. It
Barbara: really does. It really does.
Elizabeth: Well, Barbara, I just so appreciate you being here [00:41:00] and for sharing your stories and for doing this good, tough work. Thank you for honoring Keven this way and helping so many other people.
Barbara: Thank you, Elizabeth. I've really enjoyed talking to you.
Elizabeth: I don't know if you could tell, but there were several times during this interview when my breath was just taken away by Barbara's stories. What she's been through, how she's handled it, or how others have treated her. It's heavy stuff, and I'm so moved by her ability to share it all. Here are some of my takeaways from our conversation.
1. If you know someone who's lost a loved one, ask about that person. Send a note. Talk about them. Remember them on their birthday. They may be gone, but not forgotten.
2. We can all do hard things. Even unimaginable things we never want to do. One step forward, and then another.
3. There's not just one way to parent. Follow your instincts. Tough love or not. If you know your child well, you'll know what to do.
4. Let go of self-blame or judgment.
5. Don't let other people's opinions get in the way of your own personal growth.
6. We can all make the choice to lead with kindness and compassion. My heartfelt thanks to Barbara Legere for sharing her deeply personal stories and for using her experiences to help others.
We have more information about Barbara, her books, and the trauma intervention program in the show notes for this episode. If you'd like to hear more interviews with people who are using their personal hardships in inspiring ways, you might be interested in episode 58 with Terry Tucker, a Cancer warrior and amputee with an extraordinary outlook on life, and episode 28 when Megan Wizceb shared about starting a nonprofit after the surreal pain of losing her newborn.
These people are amazingly resilient. Thanks so much for listening. If you're not already subscribed to this podcast, please do, and please tell a few friends about it, too. I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr. Thanks for being curious about what it's like.