What It's Like To...
What It's Like To...
What It's Like to Be an Olympic Gymnast--Reprise
In celebration of the Summer Olympics, we're reprising some past episodes featuring guests who have been there!
Justin Spring went from tumbling around his neighborhood to later winning NCAA gymnastics titles and eventually earning a place on the 2008 Olympic team. The road getting there had its share of twists and turns (pun intended), including a slew of injuries leading up to the Olympics. Justin shares behind-the-scenes stories of his journey, from the lowest moment in his gymnastics career (when he had to army-crawl to his coach's room due to excruciating pain); to the mental techniques he relied on to get his body back into shape; to what life was really like in the Olympic Village. Justin is now a college gymnastics coach (formerly for the University of Illinois men; now for the University of Alabama women). We learn about pressure, expectations, why men's gymnastics is losing popularity (and college teams) in the U.S., and why competing for "perfect 10s" makes women's gymnastics much more entertaining.
In this episode:
- Why gymnastics is such a difficult sport (05:47)
- How gymnastics suited Justin's personality (08:20)
- Thoughts about pursuing the Olympics and gold medals (09:26)
- Justin's many injuries (15:06)
- The importance of mental training in recovery (15:58)
- His journey through injuries to the Olympic Trials (19:30)
- The darkest moment of Justin's career (21:32)
- The underdog story at the 2008 Olympics (25:07)
- What the Olympic experience was like (31:06)
- The state of men’s gymnastics in the US (34:04)
- What's happening in collegiate sports (36:05)
- Thoughts on coaching (41:42)
Want to know more about Justin?
- Follow him on Instagram: springerzz
- Find him on Twitter: @justinspring
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Hi, this is Elizabeth Pierson Garr, the host of What It's Like To. We're in week two of our Summer Olympics series. Because we're right in the middle of gymnastics competition, I figured it would be a great time to revisit a conversation I had with Justin Spring, who won a bronze medal in gymnastics with Team USA in 2008. I didn't go into this like I trained my entire life. This is my moment. Everything's perfect. It's ready to go. It's set up to just don't blow it right. Just this is it. It was more like I rolled off an emergency E. R. visit two weeks ago. I can't even believe I'm here right now. Let's just send it. Let's go, baby. Okay. I have to give some context for that quote. The speaker is Justin Spring, and he's talking about competing at the Olympics. Yes, the highest level of sports competition. I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr, and that's just one of the many stories Justin shared with me on this episode. What it's like to win an Olympic medal. Justin won his when he was a member of the 2008 USA Men's Gymnastics Team. He was also a national champion in college, and he's now a college gymnastics coach. He recently moved from coaching the men's team at the University of Illinois. to assistant coaching the women's team at the University of Alabama. I'm just really grateful for you being here, Justin, and taking time to talk with me because I think you have such an interesting story and a great career. So thank you for your time. Thanks for inviting me. Appreciate it. I'm really impressed. You know, I think anyone who's did sports growing up or has kids who do sports knows the commitment and sacrifice and talent that it takes to succeed in sports and for you to make it so far on the international level is just really impressive. And so I just want to commend you and I'm kind of in awe of what you've achieved. Yeah, thanks. I appreciate the support. It's tough out here for the Olympic movement. I'd love to kind of go back in time to kind of meet little young, just like, did you have your sights set on becoming a real superstar? Were you really competitive little guy and thought like, I want to achieve, or did everything just kind of build step by step? That's funny. I joke all the time. Like, I don't remember a month ago, let alone when I was like eight. I remember I for better or for worse believed in pushing boundaries. I think when you're really young, that's usually mostly for worse, but. I think as you get older, learning to push boundaries is a part of innovation and advancement, and that was something that I grew to really, really like, and kind of started to bring that into my sport world. The one vivid memory I do have as a kid was, and until this day, it really drives me crazy, I was called a show off in my neighborhood and there was like this one defining moment that I had And I'd never played this game called knockout And then I played and I play aggressive like and I just I wanted to win And I wanted to win whether it was like the gymnastics competition I trained a year for or if it's darts in the basement with a random person in a bar or whatever not like I want to win and I learned pretty young that generally if you're really aggressive You And get everything that you can in games, you'll beat most people because they're not. And so I remember winning that game and they just were like, you're such a show off. And they were like mad. Because of just this little fun game in everyone's front yard, I was just really, really aggressive. And committed, it sounds like. And commit, yeah, and I think that that really taught me a lesson, because I hated it. I thought I did a good thing, because I won, but then like all of these people that I wanted to be friends with were like mad at me. And I just remember as a kid being like, that's a defining moment I still remember of like, you can win, but there's a way to do it, there's a right way to win. I think there's enough egomaniacs out there that are at the top of the sports worlds that they're in. That was always kind of a guiding principle, is like, you can win, but like, the way that you win and the way you portray yourself on your journey is incredibly important. Very good point. And the higher you get up in your sport, the more, the more you become. Yeah, to the point where that became, you know, I trained my whole life to make an Olympic, you know, like my teachers and anyone that hears you're a gymnast throughout your entire childhood is like, Oh, you're a gymnast. Are you going to go to the Olympics? And you know, your nine year old self is like, Yes, I am like, you know, confident. When I really started training for the Olympics, which I would say is probably like my sophomore year in college, what I would say is when I finally really conceptualized what that meant and what it took and started to make commitments genuinely fully towards that goal, like as a mature adult and still had a lot of growing to do at that time in my life. I had this vision of doing it, but like being the guy that was relatable and not an a hole about it, for lack of a better way of putting it, I wanted to be the best and do it is just, The friendly guy next door. I just, that was really important to me. And I think it dates back to how bad I felt from playing aggressive in backyard sports, to be honest with you. Yeah, that's so interesting. So growing up, you started gymnastics at a young age and then did you play other sports also? I did. I played anything and everything around the neighborhood. Organized sports was, did soccer for a while, diving, swimming. I think I did baseball for a while. But that was it. Gymnastics kind of took the forefront of every available spare minute I had in my life pretty early on, I'm sure. Anyone that does gymnastics knows that. Did you just realize because you were so good at it? I think sometimes people like what they're good at and they're good at what they like. It kind of meets in the middle. Is that what happened for you? Maybe. But I was pretty good at diving. I hated the cold water though. I think at some point the family had so much sweat equity into the gymnastics lessons that at some point that has became what it was. But I, to be honest with you, I look at gymnastics now and I don't know why. Because it's a cumbersome, really difficult sport. Like when you think about what it takes just to compete. I've got kids now, and you know, the first time we brought my kid to soccer, you know, a game, it was after he'd had two practices that didn't even look like practice. And then they played a game that weekend, and they had a blast! It was so fun! And I was like, this is why kids stay in soccer and other organized sports. You know what it takes to be competitive in gymnastics? It usually takes about three years of commitment, three days a week, for like two hours a day. And then you might be ready to be the worst person in your first competition three years into it You're just like what all the background training is so intense just so much Yeah, and that's the behind the scenes, you know, I don't think you really realize Because you can play a garbage basketball game right off the gate. You might be terrible, but you can play it. It's safe. Whereas, like, the gymnastics foundation from strength and technique that has to develop before you can even think about going to your first meet, there's years. There's years in that. To me, I think that now is why a major barrier to entry for getting kids in gymnastics competitively. I think a lot of other forms have popped up to keep them in gymnastics. Playfully recreationally because I think everyone has been like I did gymnastics once And then they asked you to be on the team and you were like see ya Yeah out of here. Well, I think also it kind of weeds Itself out. I mean for me and my kids we're sort of long limbed long legs not you know I mean, we can't do the Overs, whatever, pullovers. There you go. Kids are flipping over and doing, you know, I think certain body types are much more suited to it. But as little kids, yeah, every kid is loving being in their little top gymnastics classes. Then you get a little older and you can see those kids who are really suited to that sport. Yeah. And that was me. I was absolutely a very talented kid in gymnastics. I was the jerk that learned something in like one or two turns when the kid next to me had been working on that for months. And he was just like, dang it, Justin. So I had an innate talent for being a gymnast. And you just kept wanting to be in the gym. It was never a pressuring from your parents. No, my parents were really good with that. Despite having a father who was an astronaut, you know, like, high achieving, the pressure wasn't there, it was always about doing what you love, and you know, they pushed academics really hard. I think for me it was, I found a place for my busy body and brain. And what I mean by that is, there's a never ending onslaught of problems to fix. And even now, as an adult, I fixate to fixing problems around the house. I'm a little manic in that way. And like, gymnastics helped give my manic personality something to do. Always. Always. You're never done. The second you learn a new skill, it's like, well, connect it with something. Or add a twist to that skill. Or add a flip to that skill. You know, or add a twist and a flip to that. Like, it just never ends. And that's to some people like a really daunting task. But for me, I kind of love the idea that you just continually advance through this crazy sport. There are no limits. And so like, I just talked earlier about breaking down barriers. Like that was my favorite thing. It's like, has anyone ever done this before? Maybe I could be the first. Sadly, I was the second person in the world to do triple double on floor, but first person ever to compete a triple full on vaults for the United States. So I like, I really like to push the difficulty stuff, which is probably why I got injured a lot, but that's what I loved about the sport. So I don't think I would have changed anything looking back. So that's interesting. You said in college is when you kind of got this idea like, Oh, maybe the Olympics and it was Olympics really the ultimate goal more than any other thing on the international stage, the ultimate achievement. Absolutely. A hundred percent because of the sensationalism that we put around the Olympic movement. Funny enough, the world championships that happen every other year that there's not an Olympics, the world championships are far more competitive. Oh, in fact, many of the greatest athletes in the world are not present at the Olympic games because he or she just had one bad routine at the Olympic qualifier because it's so selective because of how big it is, only so many teams qualified to the Olympic games. Whereas the world championships. It's everyone. So you've got that one event specialist that is like just a freak of nature on that event and can be a world champion. He might've not been at the Olympic games. Wow. The Olympic games, however, is the gold standard for greatness. There are world champions that barely get a news blurb about them. And then if you win the Olympic gold medal, there's a big buzz. And, but not even so anymore. I don't know, like you'll get some media coverage, but it doesn't really change your life. I think that's where it gets tricky with. Olympic movement sports because if you're doing it to achieve this gold medal at the road Hoping and thinking it'll change your life. You're going to be pretty disappointed. Yeah for most of you Yeah, you have to have some other drive because first of all It's such an elusive goal to even make the team let alone win a medal let alone a gold medal And then what is that really going to do for you? I mean we've heard a lot about michael phelps and everybody else that you can win it and then there's A lot of depression that can set in and all that. It has to be a whole other internal motivation to want to succeed, not just to earn a medal. Well, at least it was a career for Phelps, right? There's tons of gold medal winners that go home. They have their little mini parade in their small town. They get the key to the city or they do an appearance at the library. And then it's like, man, time to get on LinkedIn and find out what you're going to do for the rest of your life. Oh, and by the way, you're 33 now. And you just spent literally your entire life training for this thing. And you did it. You did it. You beat all the odds. You're the number one, right? And, and then that's it. And now what? And now what? It's, it can be really hard. It can be, and there, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of books about this or journals and studies and like. It really blows their minds up because they have this, this thing, but put on a pedestal thinking it's going to set them up for life. And like I did it, I won a medal for team USA and it makes for a good story. That's about it. But life goes on. Correct. So you had a really illustrious college career. I mean, you won NCAA championships. What was it like competing with your teammates? Yeah. Because they're your teammates, but they're also your competitors. That's more so with the Olympic movement. And honestly, that's why I love college so much. There might be some inter team kind of like competitiveness, but like that was the one beauty about collegiate athletics is it's truly the only space that really exists where gymnastics exists as a team sport. You're in the gym with your 15 to 20 other guys or women training for a common goal. And it's about putting up the best lineup spots and all the events to have the biggest team score. Yeah. So you're competing for maybe lineup spots a little bit, but the more that you compete for those lineup spots, the better your team is. For me, it was my favorite form to compete in, to include the Olympics. Competing at the Olympics was a nightmare, the pressure and the stage. You're never really ready for that epic moment. You spent your whole, again, your whole career is built up for this one competition. Yeah. A few minutes. And there you are. You know, it was my first time. We were all Olympic rookies on that team and that was heavy. Three up, three count, NBC, that Olympics was like largest viewership in the history of the Olympic Games combined. Oh my gosh. And we're just like, oh, good to know. They let you know that ahead of time? Literally as we're walking out into three up, three count team finals. That was a comment from one of the camera. I'll never forget he said that. I remember I turned around and looked at one of the guys and I was like, Well, that's good information right now. It's terrible. But we, our team did a really good job at diffusing that nervous energy. But to finish your question about college athletics, the beauty of college athletics is for once you have a season. All your meets until then has been all about like getting to the next one so that you can maybe make the national team. Whereas like college, it's about your record, the wins and losses, every meet kind of matter. There's some strategy there. And so I think it was fun to compete in that team setting, knowing that your one routine, even if you had a mistake, we're still in this because this is a team challenge. It's a team battle. I felt more at ease knowing that this was a team effort, even though that most of my career, I had a lot of the team on my back being one of the better athletes. I still just felt more comfortable. It's kind of diffusing that responsibility, like team effort here, people. I know I'm just, yeah, you know, and I, and ironically, some people that is way harder for them. It crushes their mental game, knowing that I'm fine if I screw up because it just affects me. But if I screw up and now it hurts the team, that extra weight really. So it's funny, the same situation just flipped the other way and it's really hard for others. Whereas I really thrived and love that competitive environment. Did you have some of that mental training in college? Did that start at a younger age of someone helping you with a psychological training, sports psychology? Yeah, sports psychology. And everyone's got, there's so many plans and methods out there, but a lot of them are rooted in the same concepts. And a lot of it is you get out of it, what you put into it. I always prided myself on being a good competitor, but at the same time, I was someone who, if this is going to give me a competitive edge, why wouldn't I try this? Not the same approach with steroids or something like that, but like, yeah, right Methodologies, right? Let me uh huh. So I was like, yeah, let's do this And where I really found it to be most helpful was through all of my surgeries. So I had nine orthopedic surgeries Oh, wow, and they all happened in the final five years of my training. So that was like almost every year From 05 leading up to the Olympic Games, I had a surgery or two. Can you name some of them? Was it like shoulder and knee or what was your major? A little bit of everything, Elizabeth, actually. You're a gymnast, so everything is affected. So I tore my ACL almost exactly one calendar year out from the Olympic Games doing the vault that was kind of not ever been really done. So shoulder surgery, a labrum tear, three ankle surgeries on each ankle. So that was six of them, two of which were after the Olympics. I competed at the Olympic games with a torn deltoid ligament on my ankle. And that's a whole nother story. So that, that was not fun. I didn't know you competed injured. Wow. So it was just constantly coming back and finally getting back to where you were or even better. And then, BAM! Oh, under the knife again and let's start over. So that was really the big moment where I think mental training became an absolute necessity for me. I used it for sports performance and enhancement, but it really drug me out of a pretty dark place. Actually with the ACL tear, my instant reaction when I tore my ACL was just like, Another injury, can't wait to come back and be the comeback kid. But then I think where it really starts to hit you is as you start that super slow rehab process. Because the first part of doing an ACL recovery is like you're inchworming your knee, right? So, you know, you're like, all right, the Olympic trials is in like 10 months and here I am doing this. Yeah, like you're just inching your knee. You're watching the clock too. 100%. And I just come off my labrum surgery, which is a really long recovery for me and then two ankle surgeries. So it was like it just came back from those. Back in shape. 07 was going to be the year I'm going to be like, tune up, get ready for the Olympics and show that I'm like going to be the guy for this Olympic team. And then bam, tear my ACL. So that was a really rough spot. And that's where I turned to kind of getting a mental training of. Honestly being psyched up for my rehab. So I had like a mental training program that I used to start my rehab for my knee. You know, going through the motions versus attacking your recovery plan makes a big difference on how fast you're able to come back. And so actually that worked tremendously well. I was able to kind of see myself at the Olympics and see where I wanted to be and tie that into how this is the first step of like 30 of my recovery process. And I would get psyched. I would just get super amped to do my rehab. Yeah. And like, kind of felt like I was on this mission, like on my own little Rocky training montage that you've seen in every fighting movie in the history of fighting movies, I kind of became the hero of my own story and this is me like starting my comeback, but the mental training put me in that space to be really excited about that rather than being like, I'm here again to do these stupid little. Motions that this person's making me go through, you know, you just, it's hard and why? Yeah, anytime you would get into the bad attitude. You would just flip your brain and say no I'm the hero of my own story and yes, well it started with there was a program. I had like a eight minute I don't want to say meditation because it wasn't meditation. It was like you walk through your steps. A thought process. Mm hmm. Yeah I mean, that's a really great thing, especially for something like that, but almost for any part of our lives you know any day that you're sort of letting your mind go down some path seeing the negative in life and you can kind of switch and see the positive stuff instead. Yours was incredibly dramatic and had major consequences at the end but we could Do that any time of life. Sometimes you need a pickup for anything in the day. Yeah. Yeah. I remember walking in feeling on top of the world, ready to like, just dominate my rehabilitation workouts. And that was really important because it's so easy to get lost there. So it was very helpful. And so we have a plan to try to build that for daily training because the monotony of training can be tough and you're always dealing with minor aches and pains and setbacks. And so kind of maintaining that. Focus and that level of intensity in your workouts is really important to becoming your best. You can't just rely on coach to pick you up every day. We want to be the positive coaches in people's lives, but at the same time, a self driven athlete that's on a mission and hungry for what they want, like, that's unstoppable. They're going to have a good year. So what happened? You went through that recovery process, then how many months did you have to get physically back in shape before the Olympic trials? So funny enough, I got back really early. I got back doing the all around almost in like seven months and went out to the Olympic Training Center to do my first all around competition in tune up. First event, I'm finishing my floor routine and I land short on a double flipping pass, a full twisting double back. And I land kind of like my legs turned out like a duck. At the time, I had no idea that I just sprained my ankle. But I actually tore my deltoid ligament on the inside of my ankle. Oh my gosh. And the timeline, again, with the Olympic trials right around the corner, we didn't get an MRI. We just assumed it was a sprain. They shipped me down to Texas, USA Gymnastics, to get this, like, MRT treatment to aggressively get the swelling out. And it really helped. And I got right back to work. But floor and vault really didn't come back. I was not able to do floor. I just couldn't. It hurt so bad. I tore my right ACL and then my left ankle still really is messed up. Something's so wrong. And I'm just like the Olympics again, that timeline is just building, it's building, and so my coach comes up with the idea and this is like two weeks out. I basically get selected slash ushered through to the Olympic trials after doing only four events at USA championships, which was considered half of the Olympic trial process. And that's just because you had proven yourself. Didn't do floor, which was one of my best events. But they knew that you were such a strong. I proved myself on other events. Okay. Yeah. So as a change of pace, my coach says, Hey, let's go out to the Olympic training center. Get with the national team, change of environment, because we're just getting super frustrated and we'll just kind of make a final push out there before we head out to the Olympic trials. I was like, that's a great idea. I love that place, even though that's where it hurt my ankle. This was it. This is the moment. And so I go out there and I'm doing a crazy amount of tumbling on a mangled left ankle and a kind of coming back on my right knee. Pre existing condition, I have, so I have two herniated discs in my back. And so when you're favoring a left ankle and a right knee, The back. Your back starts to really, it was not good. And so, darkest moment of my entire career, I wake up after a hard push on Floor Vault, and the dorms at that point were like a barracks. At night, I'm trying to go, you know, bathroom. I fall out of bed, and I'm like, Huh. My legs are asleep. Like, this is odd. I pull myself back up and, uh, I get out of bed again. I'm like, trying to shake them awake and fall out of bed again. And that's when I, like, have, like, my ultimate darkest moment of my career. I realize my legs motor function aren't working. Ah! Panic. I commando crawled down the hall to my coach and was like, We got a problem here. Something's very wrong. Yeah. And so that was two weeks before the Olympic trials. What was it? Were your discs just pressing on a nerve or something? Correct. I had done so much landing in the wrong position favoring my two lower extremities that I basically really pushed those discs bad into like the motor. It's never happened since. Funny enough, I'm going to get a cortisone injection tomorrow for my back because it's still, out of all the surgeries, it's the one thing that bothers me every day still. Oh my gosh, that must have been so scary. And that was so close to the Olympics. I mean, I cannot believe you competed and competed so brilliantly then. That is incredible. That's the weird, that's the end of the story, yeah. They threw me on a ton of muscle relaxers to get everything to calm down. I basically did nothing the seven or eight days, that first part of those two weeks. And then shipped out to the trials. And started feeling better. And I ran into one of the selection committee members and saying, Hey, I don't know if you heard my story. Not really prepared to do a floor routine and he was like you just don't really fit the team without your floor That's one of your best events And I was in an elevator and I changed the floor into my coach's room after that one comment I said, hey, we're doing floor tomorrow. We have to try a routine I did it with a water down dismount, but it was good enough I think I placed second that day one. And so it was actually a bad finish. And people in the audience, they were like, that was like a rough ending. But to me, that was like the greatest moment of my gymnastics career was finishing that floor routine day one at Olympic trials. Because you did it. And no one understood that except for me and my coach. Most people were probably like, Oh, that was a terrible dismount. And I'm like, I made it, I made it. All that backstory. You know what you've been through. I would do that. So that was a wild ride. Yeah. Wow. And then how long between the trials and going off to the Olympics? A long time, actually, back in 08. It was like six weeks. It was a long time. There was a huge window that year. So you could recover. And they did that, so I think that you could manage your training cycle to kind of recover, come down off your training cycle, and then try to peak again for the Olympics, which for me was fantastic at that time because we were still trying to figure out what the heck was going on with my ankle. So then you got to kind of rehab a little bit then in that period of time and by the time you went Off to the Olympics. Lots of tape. Lots of tape. So I never got fixed. I had to have two surgeries after the Olympics to actually repair my ankle. And at the Olympics, we just taped it up like a lot. That's a lot of naproxen, sodium, or Aleve, or whatever you want to call it, and heavy, heavy, heavy tape jobs. And they put me in on floor in three up, three count. Like I did floor for our team final. That was a moment. I was like, guys, I'm normally the guy that's like, I can handle everything. But I've done like, A handful of floor routines and my ankles and they were just like you got it big guy And I was like, oh my god, I guess I I guess I do So is that another mental game that you played with yourself? Like I got this my ankle is not hurting My back is fine How do you prepare yourself for those moments? So I think our team was really unique in the way that we approached our Olympic games. So our team originally had Paul and Morgan Hamm on the team, who had both been to two Olympics before then. And Paul, at that time, was the reigning Olympic all around gold medalist from 2004. So having him on your team, You wanted those guys in your team because of their experience, and they've just proven themselves. They're both world and Olympic medalists. This is awesome. And so, through injury, both of them ended up withdrawing from the team. Morgan, actually, he didn't withdraw from the team, he was told he needed to show competitive readiness. In the last training session before team prelims While in beijing and couldn't so like in comes our second alternate heartbreaking. Yeah, so that was crazy and so it kind of became a story of Like I dare something else to go wrong with this Because we all kind of had our own like comeback story journeys and the team itself had this resilience piece of losing paul Like all right first alternate then we leave for beijing Lose Morgan right before I compete. In comes Sasha. Like, Sasha Artemov literally moved into the Olympic Village. The day before we competed, team prelims. Wow. He was in the auxiliary site cause they're not allowed in the Olympic village until they're officially on the team. So he just moved in and we were just like, Hey man, haven't seen you in like two weeks, you ready to compete at the Olympics tomorrow? Wild. Just what a mind trip. So he was in China. Correct. At least they weren't just flying him in. No, that would have been even crazier, but you have to anticipate injuries with gymnastics. So he was there training with our two other alternates and Sasha got the pick. So our team motto just kind of became like. Bring it on! Like, this is crazy, you know, and, and, and started to really embrace the up and down journey that the team was going on and that we were going on ourselves and kind of mocked the pressure of the meet. Anything we could do to diffuse how intense that moment is. I mean, it's, it's a big moment. I think everyone copes and deals with it in a different way and we were kind of a goofy team that liked to, you know, Make fun of ourselves and make fun of the intensity and pressure that felt like it was boiling over for us. And I think it worked. We competed really well. I had a great meet and um, won an unsuspecting bronze medal. So that was really cool. First medal, I think won by Olympic rookies. It was incredible. You were not expected to get on the podium. Well, when you lose Paul, the reigning Olympic gollar on champ. And then you lose the only other Olympic experience on the team, Morgan, who's a world medalist and, you know, and had been the face of USA Gymnastics for literally eight years. The media was like, this team will be lucky to make finals, let alone win a medal, like winning a medal, there's no chance. And funny enough, I think that all of that made it all a little bit easier to compete because I think the hardest thing to do, and I think we saw this a little bit with Simone Biles. is compete with unbelievable expectation to be the best. That pressure. Yeah, and so our team, if nothing else, didn't have any of that pressure. No one expected us to do anything remarkable or credible, right? You can barely make team finals. Like we don't even want to cover them. I still remember NBC being like, you guys are doing so good. We're actually going to start covering like in the meat because like they just, everyone would like countered us out. So we like, we had something to prove to ourselves, but felt like no one else really cared. And I think that helped. There was just no expectation on our performance. Expectation's a pretty heavy thing. Yeah. Where are you set the bar? You still want to set it high for you guys. I mean, literally the bar. I guess that's gymnastics talk. The metaphor. Very high bar. The literal bar. The literal high bar. Yeah. You performed great there. I mean, I guess you just worked through all your injuries and you did so well. Do you remember how it felt to finish your various routines and to like stick a landing and can you bottle that feeling? Blank. I had one of the better means of my career at the Olympic trials and honestly at the Olympics. But again, I think it came down to, I didn't go into this like, I trained my entire life. This is my moment. Everything's perfect. It's ready to go. It's set up, dude. Just don't blow it. Just, this is it. It was more like I rolled off an emergency ER visit two weeks ago. I can't even believe I'm here right now. Like, let's just see what, like, let's just send it. Let's go, baby. That's a very different attitude to have. At the Olympic trials. Cause again, like so many people put their entire lives to converge in this competition to make this Olympic team and whether it's expectation from their families and coaches and their communities or on themselves, I was just like, man, I'm just happy I'm not on bedrest like I was 10 days ago. So like, I felt like, again, like I had nothing to lose and probably had back to back to the best meets. I've had my entire life at the Olympic trials because of that. It's a weird like blessing in disguise, you know, you don't want to get injured, but in a way it, it did kind of reset things for you. Yeah, it's funny. You see that happen in athletes now and as a coach for the last 15 years You see a lot of athletes do that every time you get to post season Everyone all of a sudden has just like this thing that's kind of bothering them Like hey coach just want to let you know like shoulders been really acting up today Really? Like you've never had a shoulder issue in your entire life, you know, like it's like yes, but but like i'm good I just I just kind of like i'll work through like we're good And it's almost just kind of that like get out of jail like just in case I mess up You There's a reason. It's the bottom shoulder. Yeah, and like, I get that. It's their way of trying to, like, diffuse that, like, I know I'm expected to hit and be perfect, and I've got one chance and one chance only to do it for us and the team. That's a lot of pressure. But like, man, if I mess up and then it's not my fault because I was hurting. That would be better than if I just messed up because I messed up and so you see that a lot And I get it because it's intense you get one chance one chance only to this incredibly difficult thing and it's supposed to be perfect You know, like man that's brutal. Yeah, and you're literally getting judged I mean, they're literally judges giving you numbers about how perfect or how imperfect you are being from the perfect mark Correct, and you live that day in day out basically from your coach like telling you where your deductions are You have to be very mindful of that because coaching can become very negative in a judge sport like that, where your job is to highlight the areas we need to fix. And to do that, you need to know what the deductions are. And so it kind of lends itself to always identifying your faults, failures, and problem areas. That is not a positive environment to exist in. And so you need to find ways to be a better, more positive coach and to still work on all the things that need to be worked on. So it's a challenge. Olympic sports are tough. Gymnastics specifically is very challenging in that way. I wanted to ask a little bit about the Olympic experience when you were there. I assume before your events, was it kind of intense just living in the Olympic Village and all that? And then afterwards, was it sort of fun? I think you'd get a very different answer if you ask a men's gymnast versus a women's gymnast, first of all, at least certainly back then. For us, peaking as a male gymnast in your early, mid to late 20s, we're all kind of grown adults, and so there's a little bit more freedom and ownership given into our training process, at least From my observations at that time. And so when we got there, it was a blast, honestly. We had our training and then rather than sitting in the gym or the Olympic village and going stir crazy, we went out, we were at the silk market. We all went bartered for custom made suits and shirts. And like, we were enjoying ourselves because the last thing you want to do is just sit and stare at a blank wall and be like, okay, 14 hours and 13 minutes until I have to perform at the Olympic game, you know, like that, that's not great. Yeah, so we did a lot of things together. And actually our, our team is still incredibly close. We have a group thread. We chat often from birthday wishes to life moments. And we go to each other's weddings. We're actually very, very close team still. And so it was amazing. You know, we buckled down and got real serious with a couple of days before making sure you're, you're covering your rest and recovery things. But it was amazing. China and from what I've heard. Of others that have been to many other Olympics, like the Beijing China Olympics was one of the greatest Olympics ever put on in the modern day Olympic movement. My family was in town and my girlfriend, who's now my wife, so like I spent a lot of time with them and the team exploring the city and just kind of celebrating an unexpected medal win, but it was great. We just kind of bond again. There's this overlying. Pressure that just everyone carries when they're at the Olympics in the focus, and then as the vents started to close, you would feel the energy swing. Like 10 days into being there, you could tell athletes were starting to finish, and it was starting to become, you know, The celebration and party scene that you've probably read and heard about. And we absolutely took part in that. We, we won a medal, you know, and you had dedicated your entire life. And so, yeah, we were all grownups and adults and we went out and celebrated. So it was, it was a lot of fun. So that fact of getting third place as opposed to fourth place really makes a big difference, doesn't it? It seems like as viewers, that's what we're getting, you know, you got on the podium. That's incredible. But I just sometimes think about for the athletes, like, it's just so great to be there. It's so impressive to if you get fourth, if you get tenth, I think it's all pretty great, but I wonder if you got that many more accolades, you know, is it that much more satisfying that you actually have? Yeah, but you know the country we live in, the United States. Yeah, I sure do. You know, the first question is, you were in the Olympics? Did you win a gold medal? I actually can't even tell you how many times I've been introduced. And speaking engagements 2008 Olympic gold medalist Justin spring and I'll walk out on the stage and the first thing I have to do which is Not what you want to do when you're starting a speaking is tear down your own introduction. You're like Well as much as I want to let that go. I am not a gold medalist It is a bronze medal if you hold it in the light just right. It looks gold, but yeah Only got third place like sorry, but anyway onto my speaking only so yeah And I'm totally fine with that, right? Again, I think because I was just happy to be. And so like getting third was icing on the cake, but then some for us, especially with our team's journey of losing Paul and Morgan. And there's only been three meddling teams in men's Olympic U. S. history. Wow. You have the gold medal team from 84. Yeah. You have the silver team from 04 and then you have the bronze team from 08. That's it. We're not like the women who've won like every year. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm curious about that. I'd kind of like to go a little bit into your coaching career too, because I know that you started coaching men's gymnastics, and now you're coaching women's college gymnastics. Big change. Just happened. I'm curious about kind of the state of men's gymnastics in the U. S., or maybe it's worldwide, and is women's gymnastics just so much more popular? And men's or can you speak a little bit to that? Can speak a lot to that. Yeah. worldwide. I think it's fairly unchanged. I think what's happening in the United States is you're seeing the NCAA model have a complete paradigm shift. College athletics, 40, 50 years ago. They were all intramural sports. Money wasn't tied into this whole thing. And now that's like a laughable statement. Because college athletics is big, big, big business. And unlike in professional sports, when you have recruiting tethered to be coming and staying the best, which you have to do if you want to pack your stands, and remain a winning championship team in the sports that matter. Which is football and basketball. You have to invest insane amounts of money, time, energy, and money and money and money into those sports. And recruiting is a big piece of that. Making sure you continue to get the best players so that you continue to win. So you continue to be the best and drive fan engagement, TV contracts that keep this whole thing afloat. And so as that has happened, that in combination with title nine, saying that the money that you spend on. Women must be comparable and equal to what you spend on the men. And so as the money spent on men has gone absolutely through the roof on the sports that drive the whole industry, you have to spend equivalent amount on dollars and opportunities for women's sports. Great intent and it's done incredible things for women athletes from essentially being non existent in the 60s and 70s to now it's a vibrant industry and that's awesome. The opportunities are great, but the repercussions, the unintended consequences of Title IX is that it has decimated men's Olympic sports in college. And men's gym is currently hanging on by a thread with 14 programs left for 14 nationwide in college I had no idea it was so paltry. That's it. Is that are you talking d1? Uh, no, that's all of them. We can dial back spending on football or basketball Or if we want to spend more there, then we can add a women's sport, or we could do what we want with basketball and football and put them in the right position and we can just cut a men's sport. That's exactly what many programs did. So it's not good. And the problem with that is, is they're all Olympic drivers. Four out of the six guys on my Olympic team came directly from a college program, like I did. I trained at the University of Illinois. The reason I made the Olympics was because of the University of Illinois and my training environment there and my coaching and support. From there. And so that's why it's, it's not good. So it's pretty much the entire pipeline is going to dry up. There's no incentive, really, for boys who really love gymnastics. They're not going to have college scholarships to look forward to, and then an Olympics to go forward to. That's the problem. That's the real carrot at the end of the stair. Just that chance to compete in college is so many athletes desire and goal and dream. You know, the Olympics is five spots every four years. Like that's crazy for most people, but making a college team is not. That's very attainable or it has been. And yeah, it's absolutely getting almost impossible now. So that's why I say internationally, it hasn't changed much because we're the only place whose Olympic. Driver model has been completely intertwined with NCAA collegiate model. So this explains what you were saying, the difference in the Olympics, the USA men's versus USA women's. I mean, no wonder we haven't had any medalists since 08. It's just drying up. I think that's a big piece. And as that's drying up, you've got other countries. And I think there's another thing to the Olympic movement that people don't realize is that almost every Olympic athlete is a volunteer. Unless you are a Michael Phelps after 08 and you're training for 12, you don't get paid to do this. Like I had a full time job. I was the assistant coach at the University of Illinois and my side hustle Was training to be one of the best in the world at one of the hardest sports in the world and make an olympic team That is the story for almost every olympic athlete out there They're living in their parents basements. The local car shop is giving them a ten thousand dollar training stipend Like the gyms are just Cutting them some slack, not charging them to train there because they bring some prestige, but like most people don't make any money with this and they put their entire lives on hold to train, to help win team America, a couple medals or team of volunteers straight up, except for the elite, elite, elite one to 2 percent that are multiple, multiple, multiple time Olympic gold medal winners in the right sport. The marquee sports that got a lot of notice. Paul Ham was an Olympic gold medalist. He didn't get that same kind of Simone Biles attention. Or any of those girls. I know so many names from all the past Olympics. The women all around, they become like America's sweetheart. Ever since Mary Lou Renton. That's right. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it's interesting what gains popularity and support and can be, uh, pushed into a career and what can't. I mean, I guess in some ways, I guess I, I leveraged my Olympic journey into a career. I had two years of assistant coaching experience under my belt and they gave me the head coaching position at the University of Illinois. Coaching seems like an awesome place to land. Has that been super fulfilling for you? It is. And specifically college coaching. Yes. To be honest with you, that might be the most life changing thing that ever happened to me because I made the Olympics. I said my whole life I wanted to be a teacher and then found out that coaching is essentially teaching with a better salary and uses my technical niche. Don't get me started on that. We should triple our teacher salaries. I'm sure you had a lot of influential coaches through your years and did some of them. And good and bad ways. Oh yeah. And I think you learn and develop your coaching style like that. You know, one of the first things I learned was I think I'm just very self aware and good at picking up other people's energy or contentment. And like, I think that's a big part of knowing when and how to push someone is such a huge piece of being a good coach. Great athletes need to be pushed in the right ways to become their best. But you can break someone by pushing someone at the wrong time or too aggressively. And I think that's where you get into coaching is abusive. And you know, so like knowing how to make someone their best. And knowing how to push someone the right way, I think is so much of what coaching entails and very little of that has anything to do with the technical law of the sport. It's about being able to read people and understand what they want and listening to them and then using what they tell you about what they want in this process and getting to know them and then knowing how to get them to become their best. So that was the first lesson I learned was like using myself as an example. And one of my guys was like, yeah, I know that you can do that really easy, but that doesn't really help me. And instead of being like, well, I was just, you know, showing you as a visual example, it was like, that was a profound statement right there. Like, yeah, that was worthless for you. And probably just made him feel terrible that his old retired coach can get up and do that probably made him feel this big. Like he doesn't need that. And so boom, lesson number one, early coach, like don't ever use myself as an example because his journey, his experience, his struggle is not mine. And probably doesn't see it as, even if it felt identical, he probably doesn't feel like it's identical. He or she, I should say. They're all going through their own experiences, and so you need to meet them where they're at, which is kind of a big thing that we say a lot now. Are there differences now coaching men and coaching women? Nope. It's identical. I'm just kidding. Of course there's unbelievable differences, but not as profound. I was very, very nervous in making this shift. I was tremendously nervous. Every time I'd ever walked into a gym as a coach, I'd known every athlete very, very, very well because I came from the team that I started coaching in and worked up through the ranks. So like that alone of just making the shift of walking into a gym of 18 complete strangers that I've never met before kind of freaked me out. And now I'm supposed to be their coach, but it was also 18 women. And I have never coached a woman athlete in my entire life. And really, honestly, a little bit of how it process emotion, I think has been a little different men generally. And I don't want to stereotype a hundred percent, but like men generally get their frustration out by. banging their head against something or hitting something or an inappropriate exclamatory remark at the top of their lungs. Whereas I found women kind of get it out sometimes through just kind of overwhelming, a little bit of tears, but, but then everyone re engages the same way. This team that I'm working with now is unbelievably resilient, incredibly hardworking, very coachable. I've only been here for two months and I feel like I'm, I'm actually exactly where maybe I'm supposed to be all of my life. I'm trying to figure out why. I leave practices feeling more fulfilled. And I don't know that it's the sport, the gender, this team versus my team. I'm still, I don't think I have enough experience, but I am leaving feeling more like I'm making a bigger difference. And I don't know why. A little bit might be men's to women's gymnastics. It's a completely different code of points. Whereas there's a 10 0 cap in women's gymnastics, men's gymnastics in college is the Olympic code of points, which is open ended. There's an endless amount of difficulty you can continue to add to your routine, which in itself, if you think about it, is unrelenting and completely exhausting. At no point in any of my athletes careers ever are we content, happy, and feeling successful. Like we have a routine that is the final routine and we can celebrate that. It's like a second you learn something new for a male gymnast. It's like, okay, can we upgrade that? Can we add a twist? Can we add a flip? Can we make it harder? Wow, right. It's like saying, I just want you to live up to your potential. And you're like, well, what's my potential? It's infinite, I guess. It never ends. Keep going. That is exhausting as a coach to know that at every moment in your coaching career, every one of your athletes still has an endless amount to improve, get better, and get better, and improve on, and get better, and improve on, and get better every day, day in, day out. There's never like a, a win moment almost. There's no end. We had an athlete learn a new vault that is the 10 0 start value. Like, I literally, I got teary eyed. I was so excited and that's all we need. And now we perfect it and we make it better, but like, we got this big thing and it was such a celebration moment. Those wins are so hard to find in men's gymnastics because of how unrelenting it is. This pursuit of the higher start value, always. I think that's a really profound observation. And mentally, it's like a different game for men and women. It's a totally different game. I think it's the reason that popularity is surging in women's gymnastics. These win moments happen all the time with 10 0 and hit routines. Whereas you see falling all over the place in collegiate men's gymnastics because you got good gymnasts trying Olympic level gymnastics to try to be the best. But it's also like, you got a 14 Everyone in the stands is like, is that good? Yeah, and if you're a diehard fan, you're like, that was great. But like, if you're trying to build new fan viewership, then they don't know. And that's the thing. It was amazing. I was impressed with what happened down there. And then after two and a half hours of a meet, there's one win moment in the men's gymnastics meet, where I think women have done a really good job. There's a lot of winning moments throughout their competitions that you sensationalize and make big, and that's exciting. And They're killing it. TV coverage is through the roof and fans are packing in the doors. And it's great. They figured out a model that's quick, heavy hitting, fast paced, light hearted. And it's a show that plays to what people want to see at a sporting event. This has been so fun and interesting. I've learned so much from you. I didn't know all this about men's and women's gymnastics, and I love the behind the scenes about the Olympics. I'm a huge Olympics fan, have watched every Olympics my whole life, so thank you for sharing all of that. Thanks for being a fan, that somehow that supported my ability to do what I did, so thank you. Thanks a lot, Justin. I appreciate your time and just being so open with me. Thank you. Thanks, Elizabeth. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. It's pretty easy to see why Justin is such a successful coach, isn't it? He's full of motivation, encouragement, and obviously experience. Here are some of my takeaways from our conversation. Number one, be intentional about your goals and why you're pursuing them. Two, embrace the journey you're on, even when it's up and down at times. Three. Facing something daunting? Become the hero of your own story. Visualize each step of the way, including the ending. Picture yourself victorious. Four. A key to being a great coach or a great friend is listening to people and trying to understand what they want and need. Five. Expectations can be punishing. Imagine what could happen if you freed yourself and others from them. Six. Something that seems mediocre to others may be the most impressive thing in your life. Other people's opinions don't matter. Only you know your whole story. And finally, number seven. Take the wins when and where you find them. Celebrate them. And by the way, you do not have to get or be a perfect ten to be a winner. My big thanks to Justin for giving me this insider's look into the Olympic experience. And for teaching me so much about collegiate gymnastics. Thanks. If you'd like to learn more about Justin, go to the show notes for this episode on our website, whatitsliketo. net. You can also find all of our past episodes there. If you're like me and you love the Olympics, you might want to listen to episode 12 with Jeff Cable. He's photographed the Olympics since 2010. And if you like hearing from star athletes, check out episode 38 with former NFL quarterback Jake Locker. If you're enjoying this podcast, please tell a few friends about it. And if you want to support us, scroll down to the bottom of the show notes page and click on the link that says support the show. I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr. Thanks for being curious about what it's like.